Where are the Dead?

[Sgt. Pepper]

Thank you for those explanations. I really like that you back up what you believe.
I’ve also appreciated that you usually post the Scriptures from the Bible whenever they are mentioned! Most don’t put that much effort in, especially when it’s a Scripture that is used by the person you’re debating, which seems to support their side! But you post it!
I have a lot of respect for that! I’ll start doing the same with you, for further clarity.

(By the way, I prefer using the NWT [New World Translation] since it has restored the Divine Name [Yahweh, which is Jehovah in English] to its rightful places, and for its easy-to-understand translation. But I’m willing to use any, to compare and aid discernment.)

One thing you’ll find with me, is that I like to reason on Scriptures, and try tying them in with facts & other verses. That’s what the Apostle Paul did; at Acts 17:2,3 we are told it was his “custom” to “reason” from the Bible….

“2 So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them (Jews), and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to YOU.””
(In the NWT, the use of the all-capital “YOU” simply indicates a plural you, ie., a group; nothing more.)


Sometimes he was effective, but many times was not, as Acts 17:4,5 reveal….

“4 As a result some of them became believers and associated themselves with Paul and Silas, and a great multitude of the Greeks who worshiped [God] and not a few of the principal women did so. 5 But the Jews, getting jealous, took into their company certain wicked men of the marketplace idlers and formed a mob and proceeded to throw the city into an uproar. And they assaulted the house of Jaʹson and went seeking to have them brought forth to the rabble.”

The point is, in order to reason on Scriptures, he had to believe it presented a certain viewpoint and did not contradict itself.
You do accept Paul as a literal person and not allegorical, right? Because if not, that would be a problem.

It’s getting late & I have some responsibilities tomorrow, so I’ll quote you here:
“Feel free to tell me about your beliefs.”

Thank you, I’ll be glad to.
And feel free to question me.
Give me until after the weekend, ok? I’ll reply to your other responses, too.

Have a great weekend, my cousin!

We plainly disagree on the subject of the afterlife and earthbound spirits, Hockey Cowboy, but at least you're respectful of others who disagree with you. That is something I believe you should be recognized for. I feel good about adding you to the list of Christians I've met who actually practice what they preach, meaning they live in accordance with their professed beliefs (such as loving their neighbor as themselves and treating others the way they want to be treated). I don't mind saying that you are a good example of what a Christian should be. In my opinion, you don't badly tarnish Christianity's reputation.

 

[Frank Goad]

We plainly disagree on the subject of the afterlife and earthbound spirits, Hockey Cowboy, but at least you're respectful of others who disagree with you. That is something I believe you should be recognized for. I feel good about adding you to the list of Christians I've met who actually practice what they preach, meaning they live in accordance with their professed beliefs (such as loving their neighbor as themselves and treating others the way they would like to be treated). I don't mind saying that you are a good example of what a Christian should be. In my opinion, you don't tarnish Christianity's reputation.

What is your official religion?

 

[Eli G]

Practicers of spiritism may think that it is a ‘spiritual practice’ but the Bible does not call it that but the opposite:

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. ...

... and continues saying:

Gal. 5:21b ... I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.

If any Christian who takes what the Bible says seriously neglects his conduct on this matter, he will surely become an unpleasant person in the sight of the one who will judge the world before long.

Acts 17:31 Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.

A true Christian not only does not practice the things that God condemns, but teaches others about the truth so that they are not deceived.

2 Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom: 2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What is your official religion?

I practice Wicca, polytheism, and spiritualism.

After reading your posts, it seems to me that Baha'is understand the biblical God and the Bible far better than Christians. I'd like you to know that I respect you for your continued efforts to better understand the afterlife. One reason I chose to practice Wicca was because of its openness toward death and the afterlife. Wicca also appeals to me because it does not arrogantly claim to be the only religion with correct answers about the afterlife. I appreciate the fact that there are no scriptures, widely accepted revelations, or official theological beliefs that specify what happens to people after death and in the afterlife. As a Wiccan, I am free to form my own opinions regarding death, the afterlife, and spirits. I can also practice spiritualism without other Wiccans breathing down my neck and falsely accusing me of communicating with demons. I understand that Wiccans have different viewpoints on life after death, but there is no central authority within Wicca that mandates that we adhere to a particular interpretation of life after death. We do share common beliefs, such as reincarnation, but no official positions on the afterlife are taught or enforced. Wicca is, in my view, a very inclusive religion, and I can honestly say that my experience as a Wiccan has been positive. As far as I'm concerned, other people can practice any religion they want. I don't care unless someone tries to force their religion down my throat and falsely accuses me (such as by conversing with demons) because what I believe contradicts their beliefs or they use their religious beliefs to justify being abusive toward others. That is what I experienced growing up in a Christian home, and I won't tolerate it.

 

[Eli G]

Practicers of spiritism may think that it is a ‘spiritual practice’ but the Bible does not call it that but the opposite:

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. ...

... and continues saying:

Gal. 5:21b ... I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.

If any Christian who takes what the Bible says seriously neglects his conduct on this matter, he will surely become an unpleasant person in the sight of the one who will judge the world before long.

Acts 17:31 Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.

A true Christian not only does not practice the things that God condemns, but teaches others about the truth so that they are not deceived.

2 Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom: 2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

They call it "spiritualism" and I used to think that was a real thing ... The real name of that practice is SPIRITISM and it is condemned by God as can be easily verified in the Bible.

Deut. 18:9 When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you.

As can be seen from the above passage, God warned the Israelites that they should not practice these things lest they become abominable in HIS eyes. He told them that by these same practices he was taking their land from the pagans and giving it to them, his people.

Very soon the whole planet will be swept of people who practice things that the Creator considers DETESTABLE.

 

[blü 2]

Are the dead alive somewhere?
Can the dead interact with the living... or dead?
Is there any hope for the dead... can the dead live again?

Some scriptures I found answers these questions...

Spoiler: Scriptures

Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Psalm 146:3, 4) 3 Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4-10) 4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. ... 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

(Isaiah 26:19) “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life.

(Hosea 13:14) From the power of the Grave I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave? Compassion will be concealed from my eyes.

(Mark 12:26) But concerning the dead being raised up, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, that God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’?

(John 5:28, 29) 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

(John 11:24, 25) 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;

(Acts 24:15) And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

(1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

Basically, those scriptures tell us

• the dead are not alive anywhere... except in God's memory. Luke 20:38
• the dead cannot communicate with either the living, or the dead. They cannot do anything. They are inactive - in the powerful grip of death.
• the dead can... will live again, by means of a resurrection, which God promises, and is both willing and able to carry out.

On examining these scriptures, do you agree this is what we find?

"Where does the light go when you switch the light off?"

"Light" in that sense doesn't go anywhere. It simply ceases to be generated by the light source.

Same with life. Death is the irreversible failure / cessation of the body's life support systems.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 (RSV)

I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.​

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.​

They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.​

All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

He who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.​

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.​

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.​

Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.​

 

[nPeace]

"Where does the light go when you switch the light off?"

"Light" in that sense doesn't go anywhere. It simply ceases to be generated by the light source.

Same with life. Death is the irreversible failure / cessation of the body's life support systems.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 (RSV)

I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.​

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.​

They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.​

All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

He who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.​

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.​

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.​

Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.​

Wow blu I never imagined...
Excellent illustration... and use of scriptures.
Imagine that. An atheists gets right what so many religious people get wrong.

 

[nPeace]

What would I know if I used logic?

You are the logical person. Try it, and tell me what you come up with.
You're not saying you can't use logic here, are you?

 

[nPeace]

In my opinion, using logic regarding psychic mediums means carefully considering everything that I've shared with you and on this forum, as well as the experiences of the medium that you intend to use to help you communicate with your late husband and the medium you've known for over 20 years. I think that your analysis should also include your personal experiences that you deem paranormal since you recognize there is no natural explanation for them. You are well-informed enough, in my opinion, to understand that there are supernatural phenomena in our world that defy scientific and religious explanation. I think that it is important to remember that another person's skepticism and opposition don't invalidate our personal experiences with the paranormal. I also don't believe that we can honestly dismiss our experiences or the experiences of those we know out of hand. To thine own self be true.

...and @Trailblazer don't forget to take into consideration what you know scientifically, and from personal observations... about the dead that is. As well as what others are saying on this thread.
In other words, don't look at one side, and close your eyes to anything else.
Don't throw away logical thinking for sentimental words played like hypnotic music.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are the logical person. Try it, and tell me what you come up with.
You're not saying you can't use logic here, are you?

I already used logic.

 

[Trailblazer]

...and @Trailblazer don't forget to take into consideration what you know scientifically, and from personal observations... about the dead that is. As well as what others are saying on this thread.

What's that? Scientifically and from personal observation it is known that a DEAD BODY knows nothing since its brain is dead.

In other words, don't look at one side, and close your eyes to anything else.
Don't throw away logical thinking for sentimental words played like hypnotic music.

I do not throw away logical thinking for the Christian fantasy.
Scientifically and from personal observations everyone (except Christians) knows that dead bodies that were buried in the ground do not rise from their graves and come back to life.

 

[nPeace]

I already used logic.

...and drew a blank? That's odd.
Only mediums have psychic abilities. I don't know why.

 

[nPeace]

What's that? Scientifically and from personal observation it is known that a DEAD BODY knows nothing since its brain is dead.

I do not throw away logical thinking for the Christian fantasy.
Scientifically and from personal observations everyone (except Christians) knows that dead bodies that were buried in the ground do not rise from their graves and come back to life.

Christians know that dead bodies do not rise from their graves and come back to life.
Haven't we been telling you that for the past 100 years... well not you. You aren't that old.
Perhaps you are referring to professed Christians?

 

[Trailblazer]

...and drew a blank? That's odd.
Only mediums have psychic abilities. I don't know why.

I drew no blank.
I said: 1. It is perfectly logical (not illogical) that only mediums can see and talk to spirits -- they're mediums!

I don't need to know why they have psychic abilities, they just do, probably because they were born with them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians know that dead bodies do not rise from their graves and come back to life.
Haven't we been telling you that for the past 100 years... well not you. You aren't that old.
Perhaps you are referring to professed Christians?

On the last day, all the dead will be resurrected. Their souls will then be reunited with the same bodies they had before dying. The bodies will then be changed, those of the wicked to a state of everlasting shame and torment, those of the righteous to an everlasting state of celestial glory.

Last Judgment - Wikipedia

 

[nPeace]

I drew no blank.
I said: 1. It is perfectly logical (not illogical) that only mediums can see and talk to spirits -- they're mediums!

You didn't say you don't know why? That's not drawing a blank?

I don't need to know why they have psychic abilities, they just do, probably because they were born with them.

You don't need to know why? Interesting.
That's not being logical. That's being gullible Trailblazer.

 

[nPeace]

On the last day, all the dead will be resurrected. Their souls will then be reunited with the same bodies they had before dying. The bodies will then be changed, those of the wicked to a state of everlasting shame and torment, those of the righteous to an everlasting state of celestial glory.

Last Judgment - Wikipedia

So you do mean professed Christians aka Christendom, with their false beliefs.
Christians do not believe that, as it's not a Biblical teaching.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians know that dead bodies do not rise from their graves and come back to life.
Haven't we been telling you that for the past 100 years... well not you. You aren't that old.
Perhaps you are referring to professed Christians?

Will the Resurrection of the Body Be a Physical Resurrection from the Dead?​

Article by Matt Perman

Yes, our bodies will be raised not spiritually or ethereally, but physically and materially. Our souls will be reunited with our transformed physical bodies, brought back to life from the dead. Scripture teaches this in many ways.

Will the Resurrection of the Body Be a Physical Resurrection from the Dead?

Yes, our bodies will be raised not spiritually or ethereally but physically and materially. Our souls will be reunited with our transformed physical bodies, brought back to life from the dead. Scripture teaches this in many ways. First, simply to…

www.desiringgod.org

 

[Trailblazer]

You don't need to know why? Interesting.
That's not being logical. That's being gullible Trailblazer.

I don't need to know why because it is impossible to know why.
That is logic.

 

[nPeace]

On the last day, all the dead will be resurrected. Their souls will then be reunited with the same bodies they had before dying. The bodies will then be changed, those of the wicked to a state of everlasting shame and torment, those of the righteous to an everlasting state of celestial glory.

Last Judgment - Wikipedia

Not Biblical. Not taught by Christians.