Where are the Dead?

[nPeace]

That's one way to change what it says... the problem with that position is that no parables use proper names.

It's not changing what it says Ken. What will you tell me next, that no parable, mentions prodigal.

There is no indication that it was a parable and doesn't conform to all other parables.

Where does it indicate that the story of the prodigal son is a parable?

Of course, if one believe that spirits are asleep somewhere, everywhere -- then we can call all scriptures that speak otherwise as just visions or parables.

I don't understand what you are saying.
The Bible does not say spirits are asleep somewhere.
The Bible speaks of God and angels being spirit. The other spirit spoken of, is the spirit God put in man. It's not a being.
For example...
(Psalm 104:29, 30) 29 . . .If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust. 30 If you send out your spirit, they are created,. . .
(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

These scriptures harmonize. What is that spirit?

When Paul said, "to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord" - we could just say that he is just sleeping next to Jesus and the fact that Jesus died, the body that everyone saw were just analogies, visions and parables.

If we don't establish from scripture, the truth regarding the condition of the dead, we would probably say anything we like. Isn't that what we see happening?

The Bible tells us the condition of the dead, as many have pointed out... including an atheist.
Post #276
QUOTE
"Where does the light go when you switch the light off?"

"Light" in that sense doesn't go anywhere. It simply ceases to be generated by the light source.

Same with life. Death is the irreversible failure / cessation of the body's life support systems.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 (RSV)

I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.
They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

He who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
UNQUOTE

Do those scriptures, as well as the ones in the OP, agree with what you believe on the subject?
If yes, can you please explain how they do?

 

[nPeace]

That is true. But Jesus went to the that place to preach to them before the resurrection:

I understand this is what you were taught Ken, but according to scripture Jesus was dead, before being resurrected.
Therefore, he could do nothing until after being raised up... according to scripture, as a spirit being.
(1 Peter 3:18) . . .He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

That scripture says, it was in that state - a resurrected immortal spirit creature - he went and preached to the spirits in prison - wicked angels.
(1 Peter 3:19) . . .And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison. . .

Many have been taught to believe that man is a spirit in a body, but does the Bible teach that?
We don't see that.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

Of course, if as some suppose they were in sleep... they wouldn't have heard him.

Many have claimed that these spirits are dead people's spirits, but wouldn't that be based on what persons have been taught about the dead?
Both the disciple Jude and apostle Peter wrote of spirits in prison.
(2 Peter 2:4) Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.

(Jude 6) And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

Surely, those scriptures are there for a reason.
If you believe the Bible is harmonious, and scripture explains scripture, should you not use them in conjunction with 1 Peter 3:19?
Why not?

Where did you get the idea of sleeping spirits though? Did someone here tell you they believe that?

 

[nPeace]

They are spiritually alive and in the presence of God. Their bodies are dead. Just as spiritual angels still have spiritual bodies - even so those whose bodies are dead but their spirits are alive.

What scripture tells you people have a spirit that is living on after death?

 

[nPeace]

It is in the Bible but the verbiage is misleading, but no matter, because lots of what is in the Bible is misleading, unless you have the key to unlock the door to its correct meaning, as I do through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

What is in the Bible is misleading... but one can have the key to unlock a misleading text?
Interesting. Sounds misleading.

Yes, that is what I believe.

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 New International Version

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

Those verses do not say that that the person - the soul - you... is raised up and given a new body, after they die. ​

What's raised up?
Does the Bible not say, the dead?
(1 Corinthians 15:29) . . .If the dead are not to be raised up. . .
(1 Corinthians 15:35) . . .someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?. . .

Rather, the Bible says: "God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body." (1 Corinthians 15:38)​

Gives what a body? What does God give a body to?

The Bible does not say "raised up - resurrected." The Bible says “How are the dead raised?" (1 Corinthians 15:35)
Moreover, those verses above say nothing about a resurrection of the body. The Bible says: "With what kind of body will they come?" (1 Cor 15:35)

(1 Corinthians 15:12-16) 12 Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up.

Looks like the Bible does say raised up - resurrected. What Bible are you reading?
Does it say something different?

The Bible says: "We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!"(1 Corinthians 15:51)

The Bible say they must die.
(1 Corinthians 15:36) . . .You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies.

"Transformed" does not mean that the physical body changes into a spiritual body. The Bible does not say that.

Cool.

The Bible says: "For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies." (1 Corinthians 15:35)
That means there are two separate and distinct kinds of bodies.

That's something we agree on, as well.

They are buried in the ground as natural human bodies, but they will be raised to heaven as spiritual bodies.

We do not have any disagreement on that.
Those who go to heaven are raised immortal - with incorruptible bodies, according to scripture.
(1 Corinthians 15:42-44) 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.

 

[Trailblazer]

What scripture tells you people have a spirit that is living on after death?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's raised up?
Does the Bible not say, the dead?
(1 Corinthians 15:29) . . .If the dead are not to be raised up. . .
(1 Corinthians 15:35) . . .someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?. . .

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

the dead what? It does not say the dead body is raised up. It says: “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

The answer to that question comes further down:
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Gives what a body? What does God give a body to?

God gives the soul a body. God gives the soul (which is the person) a heavenly body. God gives the soul a heavenly body so it can exist in heaven.

40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

(1 Corinthians 15:12-16) 12 Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up.

Looks like the Bible does say raised up - resurrected. What Bible are you reading?
Does it say something different?

It says raised up, but what does that mean? It says that the dead are raised up, but it does not say the dead bodies are raised up.

The Bible say they must die.
(1 Corinthians 15:36) . . .You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies.

Yes, the physical body has to die on earth in order for the spiritual body to be raised up to heaven.

36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

We do not have any disagreement on that.
Those who go to heaven are raised immortal - with incorruptible bodies, according to scripture.
(1 Corinthians 15:42-44) 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.

So what is the disagreement about?
"Those who go to heaven......"

What reason do you have to think that everyone does not go to heaven when they die?
There are no scriptures that say that some people are raised to physical life and continue living in a physical body on earth forever.

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No need to wait. It is happening right now. The sheep are being separated from the goats.

My years of experience have taught me that the sheep are just as confused and uncertain as the goats.

 

[cataway]

No need to wait. It is happening right now. The sheep are being separated from the goats.

yes there is a separating and has been happing for some time now . how ever its 2 different things at 2 different times

 

[Trailblazer]

yes there is a separating and has been happing for some time now . how ever its 2 different things at 2 different times

What are the 2 different things and the 2 different times?

 

[cataway]

What are the 2 different things and the 2 different times?

the separating and judgment

 

[Trailblazer]

the separating and judgment

When do you think the separating came and what is caused it?
When do you think the judgment is coming and what will cause it?

According to my beliefs the Day of Judgment is when Christ returns and it is also the Day of Resurrection, the raising of the dead. Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God.

The Day of Judgment is a period of time after Christ returns when the sheep are being separated from the goats. The sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him and gain Eternal Life. The goats reject Christ when He returns and thus consign themselves to deprivation and loss of Eternal Life. It is called the Day of Judgment because by acceptance or rejection of Christ, believers are spiritually resurrected or remain spiritually dead, and are thereby judged by God.

 

[YoursTrue]

That is true. But Jesus went to the that place to preach to them before the resurrection:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

Of course, if as some suppose they were in sleep... they wouldn't have heard him.

I would like to mention that when a person is imprisoned, he is severely restricted. Just something to think about.

 

[Kenny]

It's not changing what it says Ken. What will you tell me next, that no parable, mentions prodigal.

Of course, you are reading it within the context of your belief as am I. What other parable mentions a proper name like this one using the name of "Lazarus" and explain to me why you believe it is a parable.

Where does it indicate that the story of the prodigal son is a parable?

It doesn't have a proper name

I don't understand what you are saying.
The Bible does not say spirits are asleep somewhere.
The Bible speaks of God and angels being spirit. The other spirit spoken of, is the spirit God put in man. It's not a being.
For example...
(Psalm 104:29, 30) 29 . . .If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust. 30 If you send out your spirit, they are created,. . .
(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

These scriptures harmonize. What is that spirit?

And where are the spirits of mankind?

 

[Kenny]

What scripture tells you people have a spirit that is living on after death?

I have offered many. What scripture tells you that people who have died no longer have a spirit?

​

 

[Kenny]

I would like to mention that when a person is imprisoned, he is severely restricted. Just something to think about.

Yes, true, but when

Colossians 2:14-16​

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Common English Bible 14 He destroyed the record of the debt we owed, with its requirements that worked against us. He canceled it by nailing it to the cross. 15 When he disarmed the rulers and authorities, he exposed them to public disgrace by leading them in a triumphal parade.​

​

he is free to do whatever he wants because he broke the prison chains.​

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sorry about the font change.​

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​

​

​

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Of course, you are reading it within the context of your belief as am I. What other parable mentions a proper name like this one using the name of "Lazarus" and explain to me why you believe it is a parable.

It doesn't have a proper name

And where are the spirits of mankind?

What do you think of the story about the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31 )? If I may ask, what do you think the story's meaning is?

 

[nPeace]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit returns unto God who gave it.
That does not say people have a spirit that is living on after death.
Rather, it says that spirit is from God who gave it.

(Genesis 2:7) And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person.
(Genesis 7:15) They kept going to Noah inside the ark, two by two, of every sort of flesh that has the breath of life.
(Genesis 7:22) Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.

Of those scriptures, we find the use of the Hebrew word ruach (רוּחַ) - English: breath, wind, spirit. Not living being.

(Ecclesiastes 3:19) for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.

Of that verse, The same Hebre word is used - ruach (רוּחַ) - English: breath, wind, spirit. Not living being.
Interestingly, Isaiah uses the same word ruach (רוּחַ) - spirit, seperate and distinct from breath, showing that spirit is not just breath, but the breath of life.

(Isaiah 42:5) This is what the true God, Jehovah, says, The Creator of the heavens and the Grand One who stretched them out, The One who spread out the earth and its produce, The One who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk on it:

So, when the spirit returns to God, it is the spirit of life - the breath of life, that remains with him, to give it to those who would have life, as stated at Psalms 104:29, 30.

If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
If you send out your spirit, they are created,​

No scripture in the Bible says people have a spirit that is living on after death.

 

[Trailblazer]

And where are the spirits of mankind?

After the body dies, it returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Trailblazer]

The spirit returns unto God who gave it.
That does not say people have a spirit that is living on after death.
Rather, it says that spirit is from God who gave it.

The verse does not say that spirit is from God who gave it.
It says: Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

(Genesis 2:7) And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person.
(Genesis 7:15) They kept going to Noah inside the ark, two by two, of every sort of flesh that has the breath of life.
(Genesis 7:22) Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.

Of those scriptures, we find the use of the Hebrew word ruach (רוּחַ) - English: breath, wind, spirit. Not living being.

(Ecclesiastes 3:19) for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.

Of that verse, The same Hebre word is used - ruach (רוּחַ) - English: breath, wind, spirit. Not living being.
Interestingly, Isaiah uses the same word ruach (רוּחַ) - spirit, seperate and distinct from breath, showing that spirit is not just breath, but the breath of life.

(Isaiah 42:5) This is what the true God, Jehovah, says, The Creator of the heavens and the Grand One who stretched them out, The One who spread out the earth and its produce, The One who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk on it:

So, when the spirit returns to God, it is the spirit of life - the breath of life, that remains with him, to give it to those who would have life, as stated at Psalms 104:29, 30.

If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
If you send out your spirit, they are created,​

You can cherry-pick Bible verses and interpret them to mean what you want them to mean, but that does not change reality.
When we die, the physical body returns to dust and the spirit, which is the soul, returns to God in heaven.

No scripture in the Bible says people have a spirit that is living on after death.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit cannot die, it is eternal. After the physical body dies the spirit lives on, takes on a spiritual body and goes to heaven to be with God.

It is in the Bible that we get spiritual bodies after we die and divest ourselves of our physical bodies. This is what Jesus meant by a resurrection, not a physical resurrection of the physical body from the grave, not a physical body coming back to life as so many Christians believe will happen. God created the human body to be mortal, not immortal. Physical bodies do not rise from their graves and come back to life.

Our physical bodies will die and our spirits (souls) will be raised to heaven as spiritual bodies. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

1 Corinthians 15 says that there are two different kinds of bodies:

--- The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
--- For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies, which are different.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

 

[Kenny]

What do you think of the story about the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31 )? If I may ask, what do you think the story's meaning is?

First, He was speaking directly to the Pharisees.

As I understand it, there was a place with the titles of "paradise" and "Abraham's bosom" - where righteous people were held until Jesus fulfilled His mission to defeat Death, Hell and the Grave. That what you do and believe and whom you serve on this earth does have consequences.

Of course, there is much more we can derive from the full discourse but this short explanation is what I would hold on to (not saying that others can believe differently)

Abraham's Bosom Meaning - Bible Definition and References

Discover the meaning of Abraham's Bosom in the Bible. Study the definition of Abraham's Bosom with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references in the Old and New Testaments.

www.biblestudytools.com