nPeace
Veteran Member
Thank you.
So this is false. After our physical bodies die they will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies.
Correct it for me please. What's raised?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Where are the Dead?
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
So this is false. After our physical bodies die they will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies.
Correct it for me please. What's raised?
I guess you know about agreement of nouns and adjectives in Greek.
SOULS in Greek is Plural Femenine.
When it says: "a white robe was given to each of them" that EACH OF THEM is Plural Masculine.
It is obvious that the clothes were not given to those "souls" (Plural Feminine) but to the persons who those "souls" (bloodlifes) belonged to: "those slaughtered" (Plural Masculine).
Rev. 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is incorrect verbiage. I only used the words raised and resurrected since that is what Christians relate to and that is what is in the Bible.
After our physical bodies die they will go back to dust and we will take on a new form, a spiritual body.
In other words we will be transformed from a physical body into a spiritual body.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
The Bible is fully congruent with the Baha'i Writings on this matter. We will get a new form, a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44)
“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
Last edited:
Nice exegesis! You know your Koine.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Okay, so you used incorrect verbiage, because Christians understand it, and it's in the Bible. Is that correct?
So, if I understand you correctly, you believe that the person - the soul - you, is the one that gets a new body. Is that correct?
That's actually what I believe, and it's what's in the Bible.
What you don't agree with - which is what I believe, and what's in the Bible, is that the person - the soul - you... is raised up and given a new body, after they die. (1 Corinthians 15:35-38) Instead, you believe that the person - the soul - you... do not die, but is given a new body. Is that correct?
That would mean
- the person - the soul - you... is not raised up - resurrected. Hence you don't believe in the resurrection.
- the person - the soul - you... is not transformed, because to be transformed would mean the physical body changes into a spiritual body, but you don't believe that.
nPeace
Veteran Member
We still need a direct answer to the question 'What is the condition of the dead Ken'.
Since you agree the scriptures harmonize, then, there should be no contradictions.
I'll be back later. Got to run.
That's one way to change what it says... the problem with that position is that no parables use proper names. There is no indication that it was a parable and doesn't conform to all other parables.
Of course, if one believe that spirits are asleep somewhere, everywhere -- then we can call all scriptures that speak otherwise as just visions or parables.
When Paul said, "to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord" - we could just say that he is just sleeping next to Jesus and the fact that Jesus died, the body that everyone saw were just analogies, visions and parables.
That is true. But Jesus went to the that place to preach to them before the resurrection:
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
Of course, if as some suppose they were in sleep... they wouldn't have heard him.
They are spiritually alive and in the presence of God. Their bodies are dead. Just as spiritual angels still have spiritual bodies - even so those whose bodies are dead but their spirits are alive.
cataway
Well-Known Member
ok you dont know it yet ,your thinking of the use of Matthew 25:46 is premature . it will happen well after the event of Armageddon
;
In the Scriptures, as understood from common sense, life is the opposite of death. A person is either alive or dead... THERE IS NO STATE IN BETWEEN. Look at the following biblical texts where life is contrasted with death:
John 11:25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life..."
Rev.1:17,18 I am... the living one; and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever ... "
...2:8...he says, 'the First and the Last,' who became dead and came to life again...
Rom.14: 9 For to this end Christ died and came to life again, so that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.
... 6: 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For [the death] he died, he died with reference to sin once for all; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God.
If there were a soulful entity of a spiritual nature (whether they call it soul or spirit) that would continue to live after a physical death... that disfigures what the Bible calls death in contrast to life, as you can see in the previous quotes. Another revealing teaching of Jesus is this:
Lk.9: 24 For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul because of me is the one who will save it. (Also Mat.10:39; 16:25 and Mark 8:35).
Jesus says "whoever loses his soul for my sake"... and he is referring to losing his life, that is, dying. If "losing one's soul" is dying, then the soul cannot continue to live after physical death, because Jesus says that at death the soul was lost (and in this case he is referring to Christians who die faithful). That is why in Bible translations many passages containing the Hebrew and Greek words for soul translate it as life, showing that the soul has to do with dying or living, not with surviving death in a "ghostly" way.
Yes, death and life are contrary to each other; and being dead is the opposite of being alive; so no person can be dead and at the same time alive somewhere else.
That is exactly what God predicted to Adam if he disobeyed the command not to eat the forbidden fruit. Different doctrines about death were invented in Babylon, and spread throughout the world and through many religions. But we can find the truth in the Bible.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life..."
Rev.1:17,18 I am... the living one; and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever ... "
...2:8...he says, 'the First and the Last,' who became dead and came to life again...
Rom.14: 9 For to this end Christ died and came to life again, so that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.
... 6: 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For [the death] he died, he died with reference to sin once for all; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God.
If there were a soulful entity of a spiritual nature (whether they call it soul or spirit) that would continue to live after a physical death... that disfigures what the Bible calls death in contrast to life, as you can see in the previous quotes. Another revealing teaching of Jesus is this:
Lk.9: 24 For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul because of me is the one who will save it. (Also Mat.10:39; 16:25 and Mark 8:35).
Jesus says "whoever loses his soul for my sake"... and he is referring to losing his life, that is, dying. If "losing one's soul" is dying, then the soul cannot continue to live after physical death, because Jesus says that at death the soul was lost (and in this case he is referring to Christians who die faithful). That is why in Bible translations many passages containing the Hebrew and Greek words for soul translate it as life, showing that the soul has to do with dying or living, not with surviving death in a "ghostly" way.
Yes, death and life are contrary to each other; and being dead is the opposite of being alive; so no person can be dead and at the same time alive somewhere else.
That is exactly what God predicted to Adam if he disobeyed the command not to eat the forbidden fruit. Different doctrines about death were invented in Babylon, and spread throughout the world and through many religions. But we can find the truth in the Bible.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Your beliefs more closely align with what I was taught and believed about the afterlife when I was still a Christian.
Some believers think that Hades, the "Abraham's Bosom", the paradise mentioned to the evildoer, the paradise Paul speaks of, and even the heaven of pagans (including Muslims) are the same thing. The point is that they want to believe that the dead have to be alive somewhere. But does the Bible really teach that?
What does the Bible teach about the origin of death and the why of the resurrection?
The mere fact that there is such a thing as a resurrection proves that the dead cannot stay alive anywhere in any way. They can only live again if they are given life again.
Notice again when Jesus said about himself "who became dead and came to life again" in Rev. 2:8, but in the original Greek that we can read:
ὃς _ who
ἐγένετο _ became
νεκρὸς _ dead
καὶ _ and
ἔζησεν _ lived
Tell me something ... He says that when he was dead he was not alive, because after he died, he came back to life, and that was evidently when he was resurrected.
Acts 2:24 (...) God resurrected him by releasing him from the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held fast by it.
Which option do you think is more logical based on what you read in Scripture?
1) Could it be that when Jesus Christ was saying these words to John, he had forgotten that he was alive in a spirit that left his body when he died? ... Or
2) Could it be that what some people think about Jesus death was not what really happened, but that Jesus was lifeless until the third day?
What does the Bible teach about the origin of death and the why of the resurrection?
The mere fact that there is such a thing as a resurrection proves that the dead cannot stay alive anywhere in any way. They can only live again if they are given life again.
Notice again when Jesus said about himself "who became dead and came to life again" in Rev. 2:8, but in the original Greek that we can read:
ὃς _ who
ἐγένετο _ became
νεκρὸς _ dead
καὶ _ and
ἔζησεν _ lived
Tell me something ... He says that when he was dead he was not alive, because after he died, he came back to life, and that was evidently when he was resurrected.
Acts 2:24 (...) God resurrected him by releasing him from the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held fast by it.
Which option do you think is more logical based on what you read in Scripture?
1) Could it be that when Jesus Christ was saying these words to John, he had forgotten that he was alive in a spirit that left his body when he died? ... Or
2) Could it be that what some people think about Jesus death was not what really happened, but that Jesus was lifeless until the third day?
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No need to wait. It is happening right now. The sheep are being separated from the goats.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is in the Bible but the verbiage is misleading, but no matter, because lots of what is in the Bible is misleading, unless you have the key to unlock the door to its correct meaning, as I do through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
Yes, that is what I believe.
1 Corinthians 15:35-38 New International Version
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
Those verses do not say that that the person - the soul - you... is raised up and given a new body, after they die.
Rather, the Bible says: "God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body." (1 Corinthians 15:38)
This also what Baha'u'llah said.
“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”Gleanings, p. 157
The Bible does not say "raised up - resurrected." The Bible says “How are the dead raised?" (1 Corinthians 15:35)
Moreover, those verses above say nothing about a resurrection of the body. The Bible says: "With what kind of body will they come?" (1 Cor 15:35)
The Bible says: "We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!"(1 Corinthians 15:51)
"Transformed" does not mean that the physical body changes into a spiritual body. The Bible does not say that.
The Bible says: "For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies." (1 Corinthians 15:35)
That means there are two separate and distinct kinds of bodies.
They are buried in the ground as natural human bodies, but they will be raised to heaven as spiritual bodies.
1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
Last edited:
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging that what the Bible teaches about the afterlife is inconsistent with the reality of earthbound human spirits or other paranormal phenomena. To be honest, I think that acknowledging the existence of paranormal phenomena is more honest than clinging to the misleading teachings of an antiquated and obsolete holy book. Having said that, I'm very pleased that belief in paranormal phenomena is now more widely accepted in general society than it was when I was growing up (see my post here for further explanation). It has made my life (and the lives of my children) much more bearable and less stressful. It has also given me more opportunities to openly share my experiences with others, including you on RF. As I previously told you, I think that the Baha'i Writings about the afterlife are more accurate than what I've read in the Bible. I've learned a lot by reading your posts on the subject. We also agree on these: The Afterlife Revealed and Private Dowding. And, like you, I believe that we have to navigate our way through the physical world in order to get to the spirit world. I obviously don't believe in God like you do (as I explained in another post here). While I doubt that God exists and I don't believe in some kind of punishment from God in the afterlife, I do, however, believe that it is essential to be mindful of how we live in this life because our personalities can carry over into the afterlife. A person's character in this life can carry on with them into their afterlife. They will probably be abusive in the afterlife if they were abusive in life. I believe that how we live our lives now can affect what our afterlife will be like.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
@Sgt. Pepper
I told you that the GriefShare meeting at the church today was on the topic of Heaven. I went through this session about three months ago but this time I decided to take a few notes that I could share. I only wrote down the main points, some things we have discussed before. This is kind of a hodgepodge, since they talked faster than I could write and I ran out of room to write!
The hosts on the video about heaven said that they wanted to clear up a few common misconceptions about heaven.
They said:
- We can only believe what is in the Bible. Everything else is wrong. (I disagree)
- There are no details about heaven since our finite minds cannot comprehend heaven. (I agree)
- Christians will meet Jesus and God and legions of angels in heaven. (I think it is 'possible' they will meet Jesus and angels but I don't believe they will meet God)
- Depictions of streets of gold, etc. (in Revelations) are only glimpses, a reflection of a more glorious reality, and they are not to be interpreted literally.
(I agree)
- "We'll see Jesus! " was the main thrust of the video (Well, maybe)
- We will also see all our loved ones and converse with them, have a reunion, unless they were not Christians, in which case they won't be there.
(I believe we might see our loved ones if they are on the same level of spiritual development as we are, but I don't believe heaven is like one big room where everyone is thrown together. I believe there are 'levels' of heaven, so we might not see a loved one if that person is not on our level.)
- There will be no more sorrow and no more death. (I agree)
- We are warned never to communicate with the dead (Deut 18:10-12) (I disagree. I do not believe that spiritualism is detestable to God.)
- Trying to communicate with the dead is a way to try to keep the relationship going, when instead we should be communicating to God in prayer. (I disagree, because a person might want to communicate with a departed loved one simply for closure.)
- Resurrection is this body being restored, transformation of present body. (I disagree, and this is not in the Bible.)
- The souls will return to the resurrected body when Jesus returns on Judgment Day. (I disagree, and this is not in the Bible.)
- Do all religions lead to heaven? They can all be wrong but they cannot all be right. (I disagree. I believe all the true religions of God are right in their essence even if the followers got some of the details wrong, and that all true believers go to heaven.)
- There is only one way to get to heaven, through a relationship with Jesus (John 14:6 is cited) (I disagree, as I believe there are many ways to heaven.)
I told you that the GriefShare meeting at the church today was on the topic of Heaven. I went through this session about three months ago but this time I decided to take a few notes that I could share. I only wrote down the main points, some things we have discussed before. This is kind of a hodgepodge, since they talked faster than I could write and I ran out of room to write!
The hosts on the video about heaven said that they wanted to clear up a few common misconceptions about heaven.
They said:
- We can only believe what is in the Bible. Everything else is wrong. (I disagree)
- There are no details about heaven since our finite minds cannot comprehend heaven. (I agree)
- Christians will meet Jesus and God and legions of angels in heaven. (I think it is 'possible' they will meet Jesus and angels but I don't believe they will meet God)
- Depictions of streets of gold, etc. (in Revelations) are only glimpses, a reflection of a more glorious reality, and they are not to be interpreted literally.
(I agree)
- "We'll see Jesus! " was the main thrust of the video (Well, maybe)
- We will also see all our loved ones and converse with them, have a reunion, unless they were not Christians, in which case they won't be there.
(I believe we might see our loved ones if they are on the same level of spiritual development as we are, but I don't believe heaven is like one big room where everyone is thrown together. I believe there are 'levels' of heaven, so we might not see a loved one if that person is not on our level.)
- There will be no more sorrow and no more death. (I agree)
- We are warned never to communicate with the dead (Deut 18:10-12) (I disagree. I do not believe that spiritualism is detestable to God.)
- Trying to communicate with the dead is a way to try to keep the relationship going, when instead we should be communicating to God in prayer. (I disagree, because a person might want to communicate with a departed loved one simply for closure.)
- Resurrection is this body being restored, transformation of present body. (I disagree, and this is not in the Bible.)
- The souls will return to the resurrected body when Jesus returns on Judgment Day. (I disagree, and this is not in the Bible.)
- Do all religions lead to heaven? They can all be wrong but they cannot all be right. (I disagree. I believe all the true religions of God are right in their essence even if the followers got some of the details wrong, and that all true believers go to heaven.)
- There is only one way to get to heaven, through a relationship with Jesus (John 14:6 is cited) (I disagree, as I believe there are many ways to heaven.)
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
First and foremost, thank you for sharing your notes with me. I appreciate it. Second, after reading your post, it's even clearer to me why there are lost and confused earthbound spirits of Christians. I wouldn't be surprised if some were lurking in the church where your meeting was held. If so, I imagine them standing nearby and shaking their heads as they listen to the session that you listened to. I can see just as much confusion and uncertainty among living Christians as I see among the dead ones. Case in point: this thread. We see some Christians arguing back and forth about what they believe the Bible says about the afterlife. However, they and other Christians adamantly insist that God divinely inspired the Bible. They can't agree on what the Bible says about the afterlife or a variety of other theological subjects relating to Christianity. And some of them have the audacity to piously question your Baha'i beliefs about the afterlife, as well as mine regarding the afterlife and spiritualism. I honestly don't see why these Christians think they should be taken seriously.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I have been attending that GriefShare group since February, and I have not divulged the fact that I am a Baha'i and I don't plan to. Today was painful when one of the group leaders was talking about what he 'believes' will happen when Christians die, the rapture and meeting Jesus in the air. He was obviously confused and unsure and he really did not understand what he had been told by the preacher he was quoting. He even said "I think" this is what will happen. I wanted to say something but I knew I would not be well received and I was too tired anyway. I could see that some of the other people in the group were wincing, but they said nothing.
I would not be surprised if there were spirits lingering on that property. This meeting is held in a country church way out in the middle of nowhere. The building was completely revamped. It used to be a Boy Scout camp years ago and me and my late husband went there to vote, since we lived about a mile down the road in a rustic river rock house on the river that is now a rental.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
When I still attended church with my husband, I saw the spirits of former elderly members inside the building. One of these spirits was the mother of the former pastor. Not every elderly member who passed away returned to the church, but some did because it was familiar to them. I also saw a few other spirits wandering around outside the church. It's heartbreaking for me, but I was able to assist these elderly members in crossing over. It's sad to say and even sadder to think about, but most churches I've visited have earthbound spirits of former members or other spirits of Christians hanging around.