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Featured When faith changes into knowing

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by stvdv, Feb 5, 2020.

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  1. My own personal experience trumps Peer-reviewed proof

  2. Peer-reviewed proof trumps my own personal experience

  3. The Bible is sufficient proof for me to make claims

  4. The Bible is sufficient proof for me to make claims IF my conscience agrees with it

  5. IF I see Jesus (for real) I would keep it to my self

  6. IF I see Jesus (for real) I would share it with everybody (who wants to hear)

  7. I believe Jesus still exists today, and can physical even manifest

  8. I believe Jesus still exists today, but will not appear physical to humans

  9. I believe Jesus does not exist now

  10. IF I would see Jesus myself, that would (start or) greatly improve my faith

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  1. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    When faith changes into knowing

    Some people need "peer-reviewed proof", before believing. I trust my own experience only, not others' reviews.

    Hypothetical: Our belief in Jesus.

    A) What is needed for you to really believe in Jesus?
    For me, to really believe Jesus exists, now, and Him being omnipresent etc, it would be enough IF Jesus reveals Himself to me. If He comes to my room and I can see Him with my own eyes open. Even if I see Him with 1 eye open, that would be enough of proof for me (whether left or right eye, both are fine for proof). That for me, would be far greater proof than any "peer-reviewed proof"; I just don't trust others when it comes to belief. I need my own personal experience.

    B) IF Jesus would come to your room, and you could see Him with open eyes (and those with little self confidence are allowed to touch Him). Would that be enough of proof for you? Or do you still need to phone your peers, to get a peer-reviewed proof? So, it comes down to "do you trust your own experience?" (there is a bucket of water to put your face in, in case you doubt your eyes or sleepiness; but Jesus is still there after a cooling splash)

    C) Once you experienced Jesus in this way, would you dare to make a claim (even if you were Atheist before) like "I know Jesus exist" and would you tell others about your experience? Or would you rather keep it to yourself? I know 1 very good reason not to tell others.

    D) After 1 year, would you still dare to claim "I know Jesus exists?". Are you still sure? I mean, do you still have proof? Of course you can claim "I know that 1 year ago Jesus existed", that is already quite a claim. But I think you can't be sure Jesus would still exist. Only when you perceive Him NOW, then you can claim "I know Jesus exists". Otherwise at best you can claim "I believe Jesus exists".

    What do you think about this? How sure are you about things? When you think, that making claims make sense?
     
    #1 stvdv, Feb 5, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  2. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think if people would take the time to clarify what they believe when they say they "believe in" something there would be a lot less confusion and argument about what people believe.

    "When faith changes into knowing" ... it's no longer faith, it's knowledge. However, since all human knowledge is subject to error, and we 'know' it's subject to error, our claim of "knowing" is a bit dubious.
     
    #2 PureX, Feb 5, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  3. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    What is needed for you "to know" instead of "have faith"?
     
  4. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Arrogance, mostly. :)

    Though we often base such a claim on past experience and reason.
     
  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Making a claim only makes sense when I can satisfactorily prove it to anyone who asks.
     
  6. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    I suppose we would have to know what Jesus looks like so we don't jump to conclusions if by any chance Tom Dick or Harry happens to wander by and says, "Hello I'm Jesus. I got long hair, a beard, and blue eyes".
     
  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Faith is realized in experience. However, while we have experience of the reality of something, that does not mean we "know" with certainty about that thing. I think this is what you are missing in moving straight from faith to knowing. It assumes that it is the end of faith.

    But what really happens is we move from faith in something to experience of that, we realize it; then experience tries to understand what it has truly just realized, because it was beyond a previous knowledge; and the reaching for that understanding is faith in action again, pulling us to the next level of realization; and then from there to the next level of realization. Each "knowing" is a codification of thoughts about an experience, leading to a next. Each level has it's own "knowing".

    "Knowing" is not an absolute. Enlightenment is the end of seeking knowledge. There is no knowledge. Only Knowing without any object, and includes "knowings" of all levels and all being.
     
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  8. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    My answer comes from the most advanced masters/sources I respect.

    You can say 'I know' only after what is described as a Self-Realization moment where one experiences as the God/Brahman Universal Consciousness. At that point nothing in the world of the mundane can impress you or change you.

    I have never yet had a Self-Realization/God-Realization/Brahman-Realization moment so I take what I best understand from those I most respect as the best understanding I can have. I have come 'to believe' what these masters say but I can not yet say 'I know'.
     
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  9. Galateasdream

    Galateasdream Active Member

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    I don't know anything except that thoughts exist.
     
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I take your use of "faith" to mean a trust in a belief, but I'm not sure what you mean by "know." So, what is your definition "know"?

    .
     
  11. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    How can you think that you would believe that Jesus appeared to you, if he did? Someone walks in your room, and says “hi, I’m Jesus”, and you would just believe it, and conclude you had proof?
    He already appeared, and no one believed. He told them who he was, and none believed, not even the ones closest to him for many years. There was nothing but despair in his followers after his death.
     
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  12. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Sometimes a religious person makes a claim "I know that God exists". Then debate starts. I thought of "know", like in this context.
     
  13. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    You are sure "thoughts exist"?
    Mine are gone in a second
    Can't even find them back
     
  14. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Then I'll take it to mean, to be utterly convinced of the truth of a matter. That about it?

    .
     
  15. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I don't think.
    I said if Jesus reveals Himself to me (makes Himself Known to me).
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Yes. Go for the full 100%
    If someone makes such a claim, I rather be 100% convinced, not 99%, might make me go crazy (thinking) after a while.
     
  17. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Yes I agree, being Self-Realized is a good start before making claims about these things. Though a real Master can Grant you such an experience.
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    And you need good eyes too.
    When Jesus "reveals Himself to me", I take that to mean "He makes Himself Known to me".
     
  19. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    IMO we all have this "knowing" in the "heart", IF we are connected.
    But easy to lose the connection and then we rely heavily on our mind (bundle of thoughts), hence we never know for sure.
     
    #19 stvdv, Feb 5, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  20. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Yes, we know not so much (very very little), in this vast universe:)
     
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