When faith changes into knowing

[TagliatelliMonster]

Interesting observation. Seems that Self Confidence plays a major part.

It's not self confidence (not sure why you're capitalizing that btw).
If it were self-confidence, then I wouldn't require additional verification, or less anyway, for outlandish things.

It rather is keepig into account things I know and understand from previous commonly obserable experiences.

So when I think I saw somone shapeshift into a shark, my knowledge of biology and nature in general would inform me that I must be mistaken. It would be in contradiction to it. And that's a conflict that would need resolving. So you can ask the question, which is more likely? That every scientist that ever investigated reality is wrong / missed this aspect... or that I made a mistake or was hallucinating or what-have-you?

I'ld say it's quite more likely that I must be mistaken.
Nevertheless, I did see something. So it might still require some kind of explanation. But there is a difference between an experience and the interpretation thereof.

The explanation might be an optic illusion, a hallucination, hampered vision,... Which are all extremely more likely then a human actually shapeshifting into a shark.

Too much confidence might result in thinking that you know, but actually you are wrong, and too little confidence results in never getting to the point of knowing.

So as I explained, this is incorrect. Rather, my "belief" is in proportion to the evidence / knowledge available.

To be 100% sure is for sure not easy (esp. when it comes to the tough questions in life)

100% certainty about pretty much anything, is actually not attainable imo.
There are things that we are SO confident in that for practical reasons we can say that we are "certain". But really, technically, you can't be 100% certain of anything.

I think everything thing that we believe or know, is a matter of "degrees of confidence". We aspire to get it all to 100%, but it's a never ending quest, where nothing ever gets to that 100%.

My degree of confidence, is directly related to the quality and amount of evidence.
My confidence in something, will generally only be as high as how well the evidence supports it.



Note that I'm talking about claims concerning the external world. Claims like "a global flood occured", "this guy here resurected from the dead", "atoms work like so and so", "species come about through evolution", ...

 

[stvdv]

It's not self confidence (not sure why you're capitalizing that btw).

Normally I write "self confidence". I use "Self Confidence" when I think also of Higher Self (atma), seeing things from the spiritual point of view.

Thank you for sharing. Very clear examples. And I agree it is valuable to double check if you see thinks correct. Shape-shifting is nice example.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Normally I write "self confidence". I use "Self Confidence" when I think also of Higher Self (atma), seeing things from the spiritual point of view.

Thank you for sharing. Very clear examples. And I agree it is valuable to double check if you see thinks correct. Shape-shifting is nice example.

I off course used an extreme example on purpose, so that we can both agree on it being very strange / outlandish / our of the ordinary.
I could just as well use religious claims, especially if it concerns the supernatural, to make the exact same point.

But I try to stay clear of such examples due to religious sensitivities. From experience, I know that it tends to cloud the judgement of the religious to the extent that the point is lost on them. Eventhough they have no problem with the logic or reasoning at all, when it considers claims like shapeshifting. They tend to come up with excuses when the exact same logic and reasoning is applied to the outlandish claims of their religion.

 

[stvdv]

I off course used an extreme example on purpose, so that we can both agree on it being very strange / outlandish / our of the ordinary.
I could just as well use religious claims, especially if it concerns the supernatural, to make the exact same point.

But I try to stay clear of such examples due to religious sensitivities. From experience, I know that it tends to cloud the judgement of the religious to the extent that the point is lost on them. Eventhough they have no problem with the logic or reasoning at all, when it considers claims like shapeshifting. They tend to come up with excuses when the exact same logic and reasoning is applied to the outlandish claims of their religion.

Shapeshifting is not so strange to me. Quite a few animals have this ability.
IF humans come from animals THEN I would not be surprised to see it happen.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Shapeshifting is not so strange to me. Quite a few animals have this ability.
IF humans come from animals THEN I would not be surprised to see it happen.

No, no animals have the ability to "shapeshift" from one species to another.

And humans don't just come from animals, they ARE animals.

 

[stvdv]

No, no animals have the ability to "shapeshift" from one species to another.

Okay, I did not know you were talking about inter-species-shapeshifting. I only considered Normal shapeshifting

And humans don't just come from animals, they ARE animals.

Yes, I know that is your opinion. I just have another opinion on this. And I am fine to agree to disagree on this.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, I know that is your opinion.

Not an opinion. A fact.

Take the biological definition of "animal".
Humans fit that definition.

It's literally impossible to come up with a definition of "animal" that includes all animals yet excludes humans, without arbitrarily adding "...except for humans" to the definition.

We are animals, just like we are mammals and vertebrates.

You can either deal with the facts or put your head in the sand.

And I am fine to agree to disagree on this.

I'm not.
You are entitled to your own beliefs off course. But you are not entitled to your own facts.

And the fact is, that humans are animals, mammals, vertebrates, primates.

 

[stvdv]

I am fine to agree to disagree on this.

I'm not.

As I said "I am fine that you disagree with me on this"
And I feel no need to explain this or worse to debate on this
I agree to disagree means "I respect you thinking different AND end of discussion"

Like you said before "We can never be 100% sure"
That means "I can never be 100% sure", and neither can you.
Especially "interpreting my words"

 

[theQuestion]

When faith changes into knowing

Some people need "peer-reviewed proof", before believing. I trust my own experience only, not others' reviews.

Hypothetical: Our belief in Jesus.

A) What is needed for you to really believe in Jesus?
For me, to really believe Jesus exists, now, and Him being omnipresent etc, it would be enough IF Jesus reveals Himself to me. If He comes to my room and I can see Him with my own eyes open. Even if I see Him with 1 eye open, that would be enough of proof for me (whether left or right eye, both are fine for proof). That for me, would be far greater proof than any "peer-reviewed proof"; I just don't trust others when it comes to belief. I need my own personal experience.

B) IF Jesus would come to your room, and you could see Him with open eyes (and those with little self confidence are allowed to touch Him). Would that be enough of proof for you? Or do you still need to phone your peers, to get a peer-reviewed proof? So, it comes down to "do you trust your own experience?" (there is a bucket of water to put your face in, in case you doubt your eyes or sleepiness; but Jesus is still there after a cooling splash)

C) Once you experienced Jesus in this way, would you dare to make a claim (even if you were Atheist before) like "I know Jesus exist" and would you tell others about your experience? Or would you rather keep it to yourself? I know 1 very good reason not to tell others.

D) After 1 year, would you still dare to claim "I know Jesus exists?". Are you still sure? I mean, do you still have proof? Of course you can claim "I know that 1 year ago Jesus existed", that is already quite a claim. But I think you can't be sure Jesus would still exist. Only when you perceive Him NOW, then you can claim "I know Jesus exists". Otherwise at best you can claim "I believe Jesus exists".

What do you think about this? How sure are you about things? When you think, that making claims make sense?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fascinating illustration!
Did you know scientists knew Pluto existed before they SAW it?
It's affect on Neptune's orbit was the proof of the unseen!

Jehovah inspired Paul to show that about REAL Faith~

Heb 11:1- Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

He doesn't expect us to be gullible!

 

[stvdv]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fascinating illustration!
Did you know scientists knew Pluto existed before they SAW it?
It's affect on Neptune's orbit was the proof of the unseen!

Jehovah inspired Paul to show that about REAL Faith~

Heb 11:1- Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

He doesn't expect us to be gullible!

Thank you, I think I heard about it long time ago, but forgot it. Thanks for reminding. nice example in the context of this thread.

Heb 11:1 is an interesting verse:
Faith is the substance of things hoped for. That seems true to me, you hope for something and Faith gives it kind of "substance"
Faith is the evidence of things not seen. A bit tricky formulated. It says "Faith is the proof/evidence that you have not seen it yet"; true. The moment you see it, then Faith changes into knowing. The goal in spiritual life is to get first hand experience, so that Faith changes into Wisdom IMO

Some people though, think "evidence" in this verse means "you see, faith is proof/evidence". But that is not what it says IMO.
A) IF you only have "Bookish knowledge about Faith". For example, someone who just heard of Jesus first time today, opening the Bible and reading this verse (Heb 11:1), without any first hand personal experiences, and claiming "my Faith is proof/evidence" is not true. There is a world of difference as compared to the seers mentioned in the Scriptures.
B) IF a seer of Wisdom, with many personal first hand experiences, claims Faith is proof/evidence of things not seen, then such a statement makes sense. He has experienced something on other levels (his third eye is opened for example), so "seeing with physical eyes" is not proving anything extra.

In the context of Pluto and Neptune, I can say, that when you have experienced something, for example I met my Guru, He is to me, what Jesus is to you, then you experience "things" in your heart, hence you know it is true (although you can't see it with your 2 physical eyes). We can see with our 2 physical eyes, but we can also see with our "Eye of Wisdom", what some call the "Third Eye". So, people on the Spiritual path have a few extra "senses" to use as proof.

 

[1213]

...Maybe one only gets to see Jesus, when one obeys Jesus or when one really needs Jesus and begs Him (I don't know. Do you know?).
...

I believe, if there is no good reason for Jesus to appear, he doesn’t probably do so. And I really don’t see why request such thing, if it doesn’t really make any meaningful difference.

 

[theQuestion]

Adam & Eve wanted Independence.... and God let them HAVE it!
Jesus said unless time was cut short, NO flesh would be saved!
So they wait 'til the last 'Minute' to stop the Madness!

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I don't think.
I said if Jesus reveals Himself to me (makes Himself Known to me).

Strange concept

 

[loverofhumanity]

When faith changes into knowing

Some people need "peer-reviewed proof", before believing. I trust my own experience only, not others' reviews.

Hypothetical: Our belief in Jesus.

A) What is needed for you to really believe in Jesus?
For me, to really believe Jesus exists, now, and Him being omnipresent etc, it would be enough IF Jesus reveals Himself to me. If He comes to my room and I can see Him with my own eyes open. Even if I see Him with 1 eye open, that would be enough of proof for me (whether left or right eye, both are fine for proof). That for me, would be far greater proof than any "peer-reviewed proof"; I just don't trust others when it comes to belief. I need my own personal experience.

B) IF Jesus would come to your room, and you could see Him with open eyes (and those with little self confidence are allowed to touch Him). Would that be enough of proof for you? Or do you still need to phone your peers, to get a peer-reviewed proof? So, it comes down to "do you trust your own experience?" (there is a bucket of water to put your face in, in case you doubt your eyes or sleepiness; but Jesus is still there after a cooling splash)

C) Once you experienced Jesus in this way, would you dare to make a claim (even if you were Atheist before) like "I know Jesus exist" and would you tell others about your experience? Or would you rather keep it to yourself? I know 1 very good reason not to tell others.

D) After 1 year, would you still dare to claim "I know Jesus exists?". Are you still sure? I mean, do you still have proof? Of course you can claim "I know that 1 year ago Jesus existed", that is already quite a claim. But I think you can't be sure Jesus would still exist. Only when you perceive Him NOW, then you can claim "I know Jesus exists". Otherwise at best you can claim "I believe Jesus exists".

What do you think about this? How sure are you about things? When you think, that making claims make sense?

hi stvdv. I think there are many more higher planes than just Faith. There are I believe many spiritual planes or levels of understanding and knowing. One of them I know of is Certitude which Baha’u’llah speaks of in the Book of Certitude which is a plane reached after much internal search and even inner turmoil. He says that once this plane is reached that the person is endowed with a new mind, a new heart, new eyes and ears that is, certain knowledge, and no longer speculation but then sees with the ‘Eyes of God’ and is no longer stuck in theories and arguments anymore. This is true knowledge an no longer just faith.

 

[Ayjaydee]

hi stvdv. I think there are many more higher planes than just Faith. There are I believe many spiritual planes or levels of understanding and knowing. One of them I know of is Certitude which Baha’u’llah speaks of in the Book of Certitude which is a plane reached after much internal search and even inner turmoil. He says that once this plane is reached that the person is endowed with a new mind, a new heart, new eyes and ears that is, certain knowledge, and no longer speculation but then sees with the ‘Eyes of God’ and is no longer stuck in theories and arguments anymore. This is true knowledge an no longer just faith.

Have you met anyone who made it?

 

[stvdv]

hi stvdv. I think there are many more higher planes than just Faith. There are I believe many spiritual planes or levels of understanding and knowing. One of them I know of is Certitude which Baha’u’llah speaks of in the Book of Certitude which is a plane reached after much internal search and even inner turmoil.

Hi loverofhumanity. Yes, I definitely agree. Faith is the start on the Spiritual Path (also a good one to keep you company, all the way to the end IMO). Then comes the challenge to give up "sense-attachment", and that is almost impossible, unless you develop "real Love". Then we have to take care of our monkey mind, how else we can hear God speak to us. So it's hard work, but it's fun, I like it (without it, life is kind of dull to me).

He says that once this plane is reached that the person is endowed with a new mind, a new heart, new eyes and ears that is, certain knowledge, and no longer speculation

True, once we purify our senses a whole new world opens up. When I started fasting of the tongue (on food or water), I could see things so much more clear already (and that's just the start of the spiritual journey). Emotions release, which can be really hard to go through, but afterwards you feel kind of reborn. This process of purification goes on all levels (smell, sight, touch, hear). If you refuse listen to "bad" things, you purify your ear, hence you become clairaudient, same with purification of the eyes you become clairvoyant. Once your third eye is open, you know things. It's a very long and slow process, but I really enjoy it. Maybe we can grow "endless", when I think of the Universe being "endless"

but then sees with the ‘Eyes of God’ and is no longer stuck in theories and arguments anymore. This is true knowledge an no longer just faith.

That is what I meant with my point D), only when you see NOW, you have real knowledge. If you experienced 1 year ago, you can't say "I know", at best you can say "I knew 1 year ago". But if you see "NOW", then you can say "I know". That is the goal, to live in the now, as a seer (of Divine).

Saints go to the Himalayas, they feel no need for debating, because they know, and they know that most people are stuck in their ego, hence they won't even accept your jewels if you would share them. Saints have gone through the road of purification, so they know it takes a long time, before you open up to spirituality and can let go sense-attachment.

 

[PearlSeeker]

And you need good eyes too.
When Jesus "reveals Himself to me", I take that to mean "He makes Himself Known to me".

What about experience that isn't visual. For example when you hear and read about Jesus (and other holy persons) or meet someone saintly something moves inside? Like you said when you met your master.

What about experience that isn't about one person? For example: oneness/common essence of everything.

 

[stvdv]

What about experience that isn't visual. For example when you hear and read about Jesus (and other holy persons) or meet someone saintly something moves inside? Like you said when you met your master.

A true Master can grant you a "true" experience. And the Masters say, that we are all sparks of the Divine (children of the Divine), so anything can trigger this feeling IMO (also reading, listening).

What about experience that isn't about one person? For example: oneness/common essence of everything.

To develop this feeling, experience we need to connect with this Love. My Master therefore advises to always speak truth (not lie) and act dharmic. Then naturally Love will develop.

It's all about concentration. Hence, they advise to focus on 1 person (Master/Guru/Teacher) to love, so you can easily go deep. Once you found it with 1 person (you fully trust) then it's 'easy' to extend it to all.

Some people can do without a physical Master. They already found it inside. You need strong introspection, otherwise, before you know, the ego might fool fool you in "thinking" you are there already.

In my experience the good part of a Master is, that you stay humble. And a Master can grant you experience, so then it's easy to not quit.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Some people can do without a physical Master. They already found it inside. You need strong introspection, otherwise, before you know, the ego might fool fool you in "thinking" you are there already.

In my experience the good part of a Master is, that you stay humble. And a Master can grant you experience, so then it's easy to not quit.

You are blessed to have such a Master. This is an advantage indeed. No one is without spiritual help but a physical Master can help much more to prepare you for experience and protect you from vanity and delusion.

 

[stvdv]

You are blessed to have such a Master. This is an advantage indeed. No one is without spiritual help but a physical Master can help much more to prepare you for experience and protect you from vanity and delusion.

Thank you Pearlseeker. I appreciate this a lot.

And I agree, that no one is without spiritual help.

When I was 10, I already told my mother "if Jesus is on earth, I want to meet Him". And my parents were a bit anti religion even. I did not get it from them.

I like your RF-name. Those who seek/need will find, I believe.