Out of curiosity, do you think that the U.S. war against Iraq was justified?Depends if the war is justified or not.
I vehemently opposed it. But it did seem that it's biggest supporters were conservative Christian folks.
Tom
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Out of curiosity, do you think that the U.S. war against Iraq was justified?Depends if the war is justified or not.
That is forty years before Titus, according to History, destroys the temple. That muddies the waters quite a bit for me for understanding the situation, too. I have heard things such as that while the gospels could be eyewitness accounts they may rather be about this tumultuous event in History and what to do in the aftermath. There are other alternatives I have heard, too. One person alleged on here that Christianity was created wholesale by the Romans out of Jewish cloth, and while some of their reasoning didn't seem to work for me it was intriguing. The Roman ideals of virtue were pretty close to the Christian ones that we have, today. Whichever path the gospels have taken in their creation, they are quite close to a historical event that is extremely painful for Jews. Tens of thousands of Jews are crucified at this time, not just one. They are crucified naked lining the roads. An empire cruel enough to do that is cruel enough to do anything including invent religions, but we do not believe that they have invented Christianity and do not believe that the gospels are speaking about that tumultuously disheartening and horrific event. Instead we believe the gospels are speaking about one man, Jesus, who is part of the trinity and that there are four gospels all written by four separate people who predict this terrible fall of the temple. They predict its destruction and the death of Jesus as preparation for that event, the temple no longer being necessary at all. The gospels say Jesus is finest production of Judaism, the 42nd generation in Matthew. He is the author and finisher of our faith, a man who never displeases the Father, proving that humanity is not a total loss. In him we all are predestined. To Jesus I say "Amen, I believe. Please help my unbelief."Actually, Jesus on several occasions resisted when the crowds and religious leaders tried to murder him for being a good man and preaching the good news, and exposing their hypocrisy. We are told why he evaded death at these times:
So they began seeking to get hold of him, but no one laid a hand on him, for his hour had not yet come.-John 7:30.
Jesus knew that he had to die on Nisan 14, 33 C. E. Before his time had come he did not allow himself to be caught.
Amen. So Cornelius left his service? I didn't know that. I have heard that the early Christians refuse to serve in the imperial armies, but I'm not that historically knowledgeable. Also speaking of centuries like they are days confuses me. A lot happens in just ten years, and I don't know what happens in the first two centuries beyond some headlines and a few facts. After two centuries pass the Christians are no longer allowed in the synogogues. That much I have heard, but I am not sure its political or what.And they rose up and rushed him outside the city, and they led him to the brow of the mountain on which their city had been built, in order to throw him down headlong. But he went right through their midst and continued on his way.-Luke 4:29-30.
When his time came he allowed everything to take place according to prophesy.
Later on after Jesus died and and God turned his attention to the nations there were even high Roman army officials that became Christian, such as the Roman centurion Cornelius. They did not remain soldiers after having converted to serving the living God as followers of Christ.
That is forty years before Titus, according to History, destroys the temple. That muddies the waters quite a bit for me for understanding the situation, too. I have heard things such as that while the gospels could be eyewitness accounts they may rather be about this tumultuous event in History and what to do in the aftermath. There are other alternatives I have heard, too. One person alleged on here that Christianity was created wholesale by the Romans out of Jewish cloth, and while some of their reasoning didn't seem to work for me it was intriguing. The Roman ideals of virtue were pretty close to the Christian ones that we have, today. Whichever path the gospels have taken in their creation, they are quite close to a historical event that is extremely painful for Jews. Tens of thousands of Jews are crucified at this time, not just one. They are crucified naked lining the roads. An empire cruel enough to do that is cruel enough to do anything including invent religions, but we do not believe that they have invented Christianity and do not believe that the gospels are speaking about that tumultuously disheartening and horrific event. Instead we believe the gospels are speaking about one man, Jesus, who is part of the trinity and that there are four gospels all written by four separate people who predict this terrible fall of the temple. They predict its destruction and the death of Jesus as preparation for that event, the temple no longer being necessary at all. The gospels say Jesus is finest production of Judaism, the 42nd generation in Matthew. He is the author and finisher of our faith, a man who never displeases the Father, proving that humanity is not a total loss. In him we all are predestined. To Jesus I say "Amen, I believe. Please help my unbelief."
We recently had another such tumultuous event which Jews refer to today as "The Shoah" in reference to the holocaust of WWII. The destruction of the temple in 70AD was like that in many ways. Fewer people died, however the percent population loss was high and the deaths were worse, more grotesque and all public. The imperial attitude about these deaths was no less horrific. Its an explosion of hate and pain warping the pages of History like a melting heat, yet little is said. Such things melt men. When 911 happened I was mostly unmoved and didn't feel surprised, but even I was moved when I realized that 30,000 men had been crucified to line the roads. These were peace loving men. These men like you who rejected conquering died because they wanted things to get better. It was the killing of the civilized world. It was like stabbing morality itself.
When I think about Jesus death I can't help but also think about the deaths of these good men who were so like him.
Amen. So Cornelius left his service? I didn't know that. I have heard that the early Christians refuse to serve in the imperial armies, but I'm not that historically knowledgeable. Also speaking of centuries like they are days confuses me. A lot happens in just ten years, and I don't know what happens in the first two centuries beyond some headlines and a few facts. After two centuries pass the Christians are no longer allowed in the synogogues. That much I have heard, but I am not sure its political or what.
I assume that if we are talking about absolutely service and life in Christ then we are talking about a life of dedication, not one with couch surfing or anything like a typical American existence. We are talking about restraint and purposefulness at all times. Such a person is probably not going to have to deal with military service, so the question probably won't arise. If it does then in the USA a person can object on the basis of conscience provided that they have a history of objection prior to any draft. For example it helps a lot to be in regular attendance at a church which doesn't believe in military service. It helps because if an individual is called up in the draft and objects they will be called before a board whose job it will be to determine if they are honest in their claim to object on the basis of conscience.
As for me: What I think is that war is an enemy to be fought, so we must be clever as serpents but innocent. Sometimes that may require becoming soldiers in order to manipulate the end of a war. Don't quote me on that, but ending war is tricky business.
Let us say that two countries, A and B, are going to war. You are in one of these countries, let's say A. People of your same belief and or religion are in country B. Let us throw me into the other country as well, so I am of country B.
You have been drafted into the army of country A and told to fight against country B.
Country B has adherents to the same faith or belief system you belong to. I am there as well. You are not given the option to decline military service and you will be given weapons and you will have to kill your enemy in country B.
What would you do? Do you go to war? Do you kill members of your same faith or beliefs in country B?
This is not a far-fethced scenario it has played out many times over the years, including in the 2 major wars of the 20th century, WWI, and WWII.......
That is forty years before Titus, according to History, destroys the temple. That muddies the waters quite a bit for me for understanding the situation, too. I have heard things such as that while the gospels could be eyewitness accounts they may rather be about this tumultuous event in History and what to do in the aftermath. There are other alternatives I have heard, too. One person alleged on here that Christianity was created wholesale by the Romans out of Jewish cloth, and while some of their reasoning didn't seem to work for me it was intriguing. The Roman ideals of virtue were pretty close to the Christian ones that we have, today. Whichever path the gospels have taken in their creation, they are quite close to a historical event that is extremely painful for Jews. Tens of thousands of Jews are crucified at this time, not just one. They are crucified naked lining the roads. An empire cruel enough to do that is cruel enough to do anything including invent religions, but we do not believe that they have invented Christianity and do not believe that the gospels are speaking about that tumultuously disheartening and horrific event. Instead we believe the gospels are speaking about one man, Jesus, who is part of the trinity and that there are four gospels all written by four separate people who predict this terrible fall of the temple. They predict its destruction and the death of Jesus as preparation for that event, the temple no longer being necessary at all. The gospels say Jesus is finest production of Judaism, the 42nd generation in Matthew. He is the author and finisher of our faith, a man who never displeases the Father, proving that humanity is not a total loss. In him we all are predestined. To Jesus I say "Amen, I believe. Please help my unbelief."
We recently had another such tumultuous event which Jews refer to today as "The Shoah" in reference to the holocaust of WWII. The destruction of the temple in 70AD was like that in many ways. Fewer people died, however the percent population loss was high and the deaths were worse, more grotesque and all public. The imperial attitude about these deaths was no less horrific. Its an explosion of hate and pain warping the pages of History like a melting heat, yet little is said. Such things melt men. When 911 happened I was mostly unmoved and didn't feel surprised, but even I was moved when I realized that 30,000 men had been crucified to line the roads. These were peace loving men. These men like you who rejected conquering died because they wanted things to get better. It was the killing of the civilized world. It was like stabbing morality itself.
When I think about Jesus death I can't help but also think about the deaths of these good men who were so like him.
Amen. So Cornelius left his service? I didn't know that. I have heard that the early Christians refuse to serve in the imperial armies, but I'm not that historically knowledgeable. Also speaking of centuries like they are days confuses me. A lot happens in just ten years, and I don't know what happens in the first two centuries beyond some headlines and a few facts. After two centuries pass the Christians are no longer allowed in the synogogues. That much I have heard, but I am not sure its political or what.
I assume that if we are talking about absolutely service and life in Christ then we are talking about a life of dedication, not one with couch surfing or anything like a typical American existence. We are talking about restraint and purposefulness at all times. Such a person is probably not going to have to deal with military service, so the question probably won't arise. If it does then in the USA a person can object on the basis of conscience provided that they have a history of objection prior to any draft. For example it helps a lot to be in regular attendance at a church which doesn't believe in military service. It helps because if an individual is called up in the draft and objects they will be called before a board whose job it will be to determine if they are honest in their claim to object on the basis of conscience.
As for me: What I think is that war is an enemy to be fought, so we must be clever as serpents but innocent. Sometimes that may require becoming soldiers in order to manipulate the end of a war. Don't quote me on that, but ending war is tricky business.
No I don't.Out of curiosity, do you think that the U.S. war against Iraq was justified?
I vehemently opposed it. But it did seem that it's biggest supporters were conservative Christian folks.
Tom
I'm an igtheist.I am going to ask a question here of anyone and everyone that wishes to join in.
There are people of all different faiths on this board, and those without faith. We have Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, atheist, and the list goes on.
I am going to propound a fictitious scenario and want you to put yourself in it and simply answer what you would do.
Let us say that two countries, A and B, are going to war. You are in one of these countries, let's say A. People of your same belief and or religion are in country B. Let us throw me into the other country as well, so I am of country B.
You have been drafted into the army of country A and told to fight against country B.
Country B has adherents to the same faith or belief system you belong to. I am there as well. You are not given the option to decline military service and you will be given weapons and you will have to kill your enemy in country B.
What would you do? Do you go to war? Do you kill members of your same faith or beliefs in country B?
This is not a far-fethced scenario it has played out many times over the years, including in the 2 major wars of the 20th century, WWI, and WWII.
So please state what faith or belief you are, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. And please state whether you are willing to go to war for your country and kill members of your same faith or belief system in the opposing country that you are at war with in this fictitious scenario. And of course that would mean me as well. Would you pick up arms and perhaps put me to death for being on the opposing side?
ETA:
Country B is doing the same thing as Country A.
Christians did.No I don't.
...................And then when Pilate was trying to release the innocent man the religious leaders had the crowds stirred up to say these words that condemned the entire Jewish nation:
"Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.” At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.”-Matthew 27:24, 25.
When Jesus died a supernatural darkness fell upon the land for 3 hours and there was a great earthquake. A Roman officer at the execution seeing these events proclaimed:
"Now when the army officer who was standing by with him in view saw that he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.”-Mark 15:39.
There was No first-century Christian support for any invasion.Christians did.
Overwhelmingly, Christians supported the Invasion.......................Tom
Christians did.
Overwhelmingly, Christians supported the Invasion.
I vehemently opposed it. I was on the street carrying my sign. I was organizing "Letters to the editor" and "Write your Representative" campaigns.
The main group advocating for the War were conservative Christian folks.
What's with that?
Was Jesus kind of a bumbler? What?
Why were Christian folks my biggest enemies when it came to stopping that Invasion?
Tom
There was No first-century Christian support for any invasion.
Jesus and his followers did Not even get involved in the issues of the day between the Jews verses the Romans.
So-called Christians ( Christendom ) support invasion.
Jesus forewarned that MANY would ' come in his name ' but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23.
I don't believe that's true.There was No first-century Christian support for any invasion.
Jesus and his followers did Not even get involved in the issues of the day between the Jews verses the Romans.
So-called Christians ( Christendom ) support invasion.
Jesus forewarned that MANY would ' come in his name ' but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23.
Well, I must admit that at the time I actually supported the war; but I was a teenager and I didn't know anything. Later on I realized it was all nonsense and I needed to pray for forgiveness. Because our leaders are dragging us into wars on false pretenses with their own twisted aims in mind. We should stand for good things; we don't need to build an empire or kill people in foreign countries. In the gulf war the infamous throwing babies out of incubators bit was most likely completely staged propaganda by American news. So no surprise that George jr. had to finish the job his dad started.Christians did.
Overwhelmingly, Christians supported the Invasion.
I vehemently opposed it. I was on the street carrying my sign. I was organizing "Letters to the editor" and "Write your Representative" campaigns.
The main group advocating for the War were conservative Christian folks.
What's with that?
Was Jesus kind of a bumbler? What?
Why were Christian folks my biggest enemies when it came to stopping that Invasion?
Tom
I don't claim to be a mind reader.Would it not be more apporpiate to call them "nominal" Christians. In name only.
Besides trumped-up charges of treason, also sedition and injured majesty.I don't believe that's true. Jesus was executed for violent treason................Tom
That you have figured out the dating system is nice, but it can't change a heart. It best its a sign, like the rainbow is a sign. People see rainbows all the time, but following them doesn't lead to gold.Now I am going to show you a prophecy given to Daniel telling us exactly when the Messiah was going to appear, how long he would preach for, and exactly when he would die. This was foretold by Jehovah God long before Jesus came to earth, around 500 years before:
The text says nothing of the kind. I think that's just another Christian retrofit.On the 14th of that month, the full moon, they were lead out of bondage to Egypt. This night was the Passover. For God's angel passed over all the houses that had the blood of the sheep sprinkled on their doorposts. The blood represented the sacrifice of Jesus Christ the coming Messiah.
These sorts of 'prophetic' games with numbers remind me of Martin Gardner's chapter 15 on The Great Pyramid in Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science and the purported 'divinations' and 'prophecies' that can be obtains by juggling the figures obtained. Just for fun he shows how you can 'prophesy' using the dimensions of the Washington Monument. In short, as long as you know the result you want, you can always find or supply figures that appear to support that result. Another unarguable point he makes is that a successful unlikely prophecy is of itself vastly more likely to be written after the event (while purporting to be earlier) than to be an actual example of a successful prophecy.Now I am going to show you a prophecy given to Daniel telling us exactly when the Messiah was going to appear, how long he would preach for, and exactly when he would die. This was foretold by Jehovah God long before Jesus came to earth, around 500 years before:
No, you edit the quote to suit your argument. It actually says:That the Messiah would be put to death after he arrived we are told:
“And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself."-Daniel 9:26.
You're making a circular argument ─ that Jesus must have started preaching in 29 CE because that's 3½ years before his death, and that proves the figure 3½ years is a valid prophecy. In fact you have no biblical basis for saying Jesus started preaching in 29 CE or that he was crucified in 33 CE, nor any convincing answer to those who say he preached for one year and was crucified in 30 CE (which may also be untrue).Counting from when he began preaching in 29 C. E.
But as I pointed out above, 'cut off' can't mean 'killed' in Daniel because the person said to be anointed goes on to do further things.At the half of the week the Messiah was cut off just as Jehovah foretold.
Sounds like both countries are being bratty kids. Diplomacy is much better and less bloody.Let us say that two countries, A and B, are going to war. You are in one of these countries, let's say A. People of your same belief and or religion are in country B. Let us throw me into the other country as well, so I am of country B.
So, in war, you're telling me I will be wasting time asking people if they are of the same faith as me instead of shooting at the people shooting at me? Why is that even relevant?What would you do? Do you go to war? Do you kill members of your same faith or beliefs in country B?
Just because I'm shipped out doesn't mean the President has a gun to my head telling me to shoot. I could just go over and find some popcorn and let everyone else who's trigger happy save me the trouble.And please state whether you are willing to go to war for your country and kill members of your same faith or belief system in the opposing country that you are at war with in this fictitious scenario. And of course that would mean me as well. Would you pick up arms and perhaps put me to death for being on the opposing side?
Hard to tell since he attacks people with a whip and vandalizes stuff that doesn't belong to him.What would Jesus say I should do in such a case?
Exactly."You will have to kill your enemy in country B"? I've no enemies in any country.
What about if it's objective one side, no matter what their religion is, is causing actual objective harm to others?I would absolutely not be killing any Jews. I would desert and attempt to join the other nation.
And yet so many people are actually executed. Guess this was a one-time deal, huh?The 3 young Hebrews displayed this. They were told to bow down and worship an idol to the king of Babylon. They refused, and when brought before Nebuchadnezzar and they were told they were going to die if they did not obey, this is their response
Wow. Are you from the US? Name me a SINGLE country without a lot of blood on its hands.Many Germans prior to you indeed have behaved in the same manner.
Are you expecting us to know who you are at war? Does everyone start off before the battle introducing themselves?Ok. So we got two pagans who would murder me in war here.
Ah, WW2, that lovely little spat where the US gladly vaporized even children.Both my grandfathers served in WWII. One in the European Theater of war, in the 2nd Calvary Division, a tank division, fighting in the Battle of the Bulge against Hitler and the Nazis, and the other fought in the Pacific Theater as a marine on a PT boat, and was in the battle of Okinawa.
I did. While I was reading about the history of autism (a book called NeuroTribes), it went over all the horrific eugenics stuff our country (the US) was doing before Nazis were even a thing.I was just reading that the Americans influenced the Nazis before the war with their ideas about racial superiority and eugenics. Did you know that?
LOL. The people doing it have been Christian often as not.You need to look at the history of forced hysterectomies and lobotomies. Caused by those believing in evolution and survival of the so-called fittest.
Yeah. War is often about some lazy jerks who have to have other people do their fights for them. I'd rather see the leaders duke it out like the old days.Muslim here.
No i would not kill anyone not from same faith or from any other faith.
If they tried to give me a weapon i would refuse to take it.
Not really, but thanks for playing.A true Christian is a follower of Christ. He was peaceful.
And I smell the author of this story kissing the butts of Romans. He was involved with an attack at the Temple, where he himself chased people with a whip and vandalized other people's property. He had a history of destroying trees and pigs and such. Also it doesn't really matter whether Jesus was doing anything wrong or not. Romans didn't care. They weren't exactly in love with due process. Pilate was such a horrible person in an empire filled with horrible people that he was banished.He was letting Pilate know he did not have to worry about Jesus trying to cause insurrection or sedition as was falsely being charged. In fact when they tried to make him king he refused.
How does Yahweh think of this? I thought He was a jealous God.But Jesus is now reigning as king in heaven.
Not really. The bible shows us that Yahweh, in a more obscure and earlier tale, was assigned Hebrews by El. Even Jesus said he only came for Jews. That's not the entire earth.And he has the legal claim to rule the earth.
But in the bible God and Jesus are rather racist. Even for the group of people they were actually interested in, bad things happened to those poor people all the time. God would promise to protect His people and then plot their demise mere paragraphs later.Now, instead of people of the same faith and beliefs fighting and slaughtering each other, imagine them all serving the true God Jehovah in peace and unity and love.
Hang on, I need to pee I'm laughing so hard. He didn't persecute Jews or Roma or whatever?In fact they were the only organization that was persecuted by Hitler because of their religious stance.
I have a hard time believing this story's accuracy.The conviction of those brothers and sisters was not misplaced. Before long, the Nazi regime collapsed, and Heinrich Himmler—the man who said “here upon earth it is we who rule”—was running for his life. While doing so, he encountered Brother Lübke, a former prisoner whom he recognized. Thoroughly defeated, Himmler asked Brother Lübke: “Well, Bible Student, what happens now?” Brother Lübke explained to Himmler that Jehovah’s Witnesses knew all along that the Nazi regime would fail and that they would be delivered. Himmler—the man who previously had so much to say about Jehovah’s Witnesses—was finally speechless. Shortly thereafter, he committed suicide. The point? Our study of the Bible, including its prophecies, can build unbreakable faith in God and give us confidence during times of trial.—2 Pet. 1:19-21.-The Watchtower July, 2020 pp 12, 13.
I live in the US in 2020. The people I know are scarier.I'd be more loyal with the people I know. Not with strangers.
Jews didn't kill Jesus. Romans did. Jesus did things that got him on Rome's radar (at least locally ... maybe). There might be some confusion of Jesus' as Barabbas was also known as Jesus and fits the terrorist profile better.You can see the humanity and love in Jesus when he looked upon Jerusalem. He knew what was going to happen to Jerusalem because they had rejected God's Messiah, and put to death the son of God.
Jesus is making stuff up because most of the prophets didn't die like that. Maybe a couple were executed by the relevant state involved, but Jesus is telling a story that can be dated to his time or maybe a bit later IIRC.“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her
Even the people he attacked? The owners of the stuff he destroyed? The swineherd? Were they appreciative?Everyone knew he was a righteous and innocent man condemned to death.
Conversations that never happened for 200, Alex.Even Pontius Pilate several times said he found nothing wrong in the man.
I honestly can't take people seriously when they are so dedicated to anti-Semitism that they parrot things that just simply couldn't have happened. Jewish leadership had NO power for that kind of thing. Jews are blamed because as Christianity expanded to include gentiles, it became necessary to blame anyone but the gentiles who actually did the thing.But the Jewish Sanhedrin, their high court, comprised of the High Priest, priests, scribes, and 71 of the top men in Israel conspired together to put the innocent son of God to death.
So what? He was a Roman. He could spend hours describing divine kids from his pantheon alone.Now when the army officer who was standing by with him in view saw that he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.”
But he did things to justify those charges, including assault and vandalism. Romans would execute people for far less.Remember: the false clergy of Jesus' day used trumped-up charges of sedition, treason and injured majesty to have Jesus executed.
As did most "Mosaic" texts.The name Nisan came after the Babylonian bondage
This is a messiah who says he has to come back to fix the thing he was sent here the first time for.Was Jesus kind of a bumbler? What?