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Featured What is Your Stance?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eyes to See, Sep 18, 2020.

  1. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Out of curiosity, do you think that the U.S. war against Iraq was justified?

    I vehemently opposed it. But it did seem that it's biggest supporters were conservative Christian folks.
    Tom
     
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  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    That is forty years before Titus, according to History, destroys the temple. That muddies the waters quite a bit for me for understanding the situation, too. I have heard things such as that while the gospels could be eyewitness accounts they may rather be about this tumultuous event in History and what to do in the aftermath. There are other alternatives I have heard, too. One person alleged on here that Christianity was created wholesale by the Romans out of Jewish cloth, and while some of their reasoning didn't seem to work for me it was intriguing. The Roman ideals of virtue were pretty close to the Christian ones that we have, today. Whichever path the gospels have taken in their creation, they are quite close to a historical event that is extremely painful for Jews. Tens of thousands of Jews are crucified at this time, not just one. They are crucified naked lining the roads. An empire cruel enough to do that is cruel enough to do anything including invent religions, but we do not believe that they have invented Christianity and do not believe that the gospels are speaking about that tumultuously disheartening and horrific event. Instead we believe the gospels are speaking about one man, Jesus, who is part of the trinity and that there are four gospels all written by four separate people who predict this terrible fall of the temple. They predict its destruction and the death of Jesus as preparation for that event, the temple no longer being necessary at all. The gospels say Jesus is finest production of Judaism, the 42nd generation in Matthew. He is the author and finisher of our faith, a man who never displeases the Father, proving that humanity is not a total loss. In him we all are predestined. To Jesus I say "Amen, I believe. Please help my unbelief."

    We recently had another such tumultuous event which Jews refer to today as "The Shoah" in reference to the holocaust of WWII. The destruction of the temple in 70AD was like that in many ways. Fewer people died, however the percent population loss was high and the deaths were worse, more grotesque and all public. The imperial attitude about these deaths was no less horrific. Its an explosion of hate and pain warping the pages of History like a melting heat, yet little is said. Such things melt men. When 911 happened I was mostly unmoved and didn't feel surprised, but even I was moved when I realized that 30,000 men had been crucified to line the roads. These were peace loving men. These men like you who rejected conquering died because they wanted things to get better. It was the killing of the civilized world. It was like stabbing morality itself.

    When I think about Jesus death I can't help but also think about the deaths of these good men who were so like him. :(

    Amen. So Cornelius left his service? I didn't know that. I have heard that the early Christians refuse to serve in the imperial armies, but I'm not that historically knowledgeable. Also speaking of centuries like they are days confuses me. A lot happens in just ten years, and I don't know what happens in the first two centuries beyond some headlines and a few facts. After two centuries pass the Christians are no longer allowed in the synogogues. That much I have heard, but I am not sure its political or what.

    I assume that if we are talking about absolutely service and life in Christ then we are talking about a life of dedication, not one with couch surfing or anything like a typical American existence. We are talking about restraint and purposefulness at all times. Such a person is probably not going to have to deal with military service, so the question probably won't arise. If it does then in the USA a person can object on the basis of conscience provided that they have a history of objection prior to any draft. For example it helps a lot to be in regular attendance at a church which doesn't believe in military service. It helps because if an individual is called up in the draft and objects they will be called before a board whose job it will be to determine if they are honest in their claim to object on the basis of conscience.

    As for me: What I think is that war is an enemy to be fought, so we must be clever as serpents but innocent. Sometimes that may require becoming soldiers in order to manipulate the end of a war. Don't quote me on that, but ending war is tricky business.
     
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  3. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    Christianity was not understood by the Romans. A Christian stopped serving in the military, and stopped celebrating the pagan holidays, that later crept into the apostate Christianity of later years, the Saturnalia, which later became Christmas, even birthdays, all pagan celebrations. The Christians were outlawed hunted down and murdered by the Romans, many times in their arenas in public display as they were attacked by vicious animals or even gladiators.

    You can see the humanity and love in Jesus when he looked upon Jerusalem. He knew what was going to happen to Jerusalem because they had rejected God's Messiah, and put to death the son of God. Even though they were a wicked people he still cared about them. In fact as he overlooked Jerusalem he wept at what was going to happen and said this:

    Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you. For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”-Matthew 23:37-39.

    While Jesus was dragging his torture stake up to Skull Place to be hung women were walked beside weeping for him. Everyone knew he was a righteous and innocent man condemned to death. Even Pontius Pilate several times said he found nothing wrong in the man. You know what Jesus said, even after all the agony and torture he had gone through and was going through? He looked at those women and he could see what their future was and he told them:

    "Jesus turned to the women and said: “Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for me. Weep instead for yourselves and for your children;  for look! days are coming when people will say, ‘Happy are the barren women, the wombs that did not give birth and the breasts that did not nurse!’  Then they will start saying to the mountains, ‘Fall over us!’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us over!’ If they do these things when the tree is moist, what will occur when it is withered?”-Luke 2328-31.

    The tree is moist, that refers to the fact that there was still a little life left in the Jewish system as Jesus Christ the Messiah was still in their midst. But the Jewish Sanhedrin, their high court, comprised of the High Priest, priests, scribes, and 71 of the top men in Israel conspired together to put the innocent son of God to death.

    And then when Pilate was trying to release the innocent man the religious leaders had the crowds stirred up to say these words that condemned the entire Jewish nation:

    "Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.” At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.”-Matthew 27:24, 25.

    When Jesus died a supernatural darkness fell upon the land for 3 hours and there was a great earthquake. A Roman officer at the execution seeing these events proclaimed:
    IMG_0707.JPG

    "Now when the army officer who was standing by with him in view saw that he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.”-Mark 15:39.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, even the false clergy of Christendom ( so-called Christian ) have used the pulpit as a recruiting station so that parents would sacrifice their sons on the Altar of War as if that is the same thing as the Altar of God. Such clergy are in bed with the political.

    Jesus and his followers were politically neutral and did Not even get involved in the issues of the day between the Jews and the Romans.
    Thus, even today genuine ' wheat ' followers of Christ would Not pick up arms, and Not go to any wars.
    Remember: the false clergy of Jesus' day used trumped-up charges of sedition, treason and injured majesty to have Jesus executed.
     
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  5. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    One more thought on the day Jesus had to die, Nisan 14, 33 C. E.

    The Jewish calendar is a lunar one. It begins on the new moon. In Exodus they were told to begin counting their months from the 1st of Abib, Abib is also called Nisan. (The name Nisan came after the Babylonian bondage.) On the 14th of that month, the full moon, they were lead out of bondage to Egypt. This night was the Passover. For God's angel passed over all the houses that had the blood of the sheep sprinkled on their doorposts. The blood represented the sacrifice of Jesus Christ the coming Messiah.

    Now I am going to show you a prophecy given to Daniel telling us exactly when the Messiah was going to appear, how long he would preach for, and exactly when he would die. This was foretold by Jehovah God long before Jesus came to earth, around 500 years before:

    "You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress."-Daniel 9:25.

    The word that went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem happened in 455 B. C. E. We are told that 69 weeks of years would pass until the coming of Messiah. Counting 69 weeks of years, or 483 years from 455 B. C. E. we arrive at 29 C. E.

    Jesus Christ at the end of the 69 weeks of years foretold in Daniel 9 was baptized at the age of 30 years old and began preaching the good news of the kingdom. He preached for 3 1/2 years.

    That the Messiah would be put to death after he arrived we are told:

    And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself."-Daniel 9:26.

    That Jehovah had foreseen the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C. E. we are next told:

    "And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations."-Daniel 9:26.

    The people of a leader, were the Roman soldiers, under the command of General Titus. The angel told Daniel here 500 years in advance that "what is decided upon is desolations," for Jersualem and its temple because they were going to reject and put to death the Messiah sent to them, the son of the Most High God, and the Savior of the world.

    Notice exactly when Jesus was to die:

    And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."-Daniel 9:27.

    During the 70th week of years at the half of the week "he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease." This happened 3 1/2 years into Jesus' ministry. Counting from when he began preaching in 29 C. E. 3 1/2 years, we come to the date Nisan 14, 33 C. E. The day of the Passover. At the half of the week the Messiah was cut off just as Jehovah foretold. At the end of the final week of years, in 36 C. E. the Jewish nation was totally rejected and people of the nations were accepted into the new covenant made with converts to Christianity for a kingdom.
     
    #65 Eyes to See, Sep 19, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  6. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    No I don't.
     
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I'm an igtheist.

    Morally I'd be okay with fighting in my country's defense.

    I'd need a dang good reason to risk my life invading someone else.

    (I understand that one problem with infantry in battle is the number who won't aim so as to hit a visible enemy.)
     
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  8. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Christians did.
    Overwhelmingly, Christians supported the Invasion.

    I vehemently opposed it. I was on the street carrying my sign. I was organizing "Letters to the editor" and "Write your Representative" campaigns.

    The main group advocating for the War were conservative Christian folks.

    What's with that?
    Was Jesus kind of a bumbler? What?

    Why were Christian folks my biggest enemies when it came to stopping that Invasion?
    Tom
     
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  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, 3 hours had to be a supernatural darkness because I was taught the longest eclipse lasts 8 to 12 minutes long.
    Such darkness could Not be caused by a solar eclipse because such an event happens at the time of the New moon.
    This was in the Passover season when the Moon is always full.

    .... and I find the ' blood '(guilt) came upon those people because as Luke wrote that they delivered up Jesus at Acts of the Apostles 2:22; 3:13-15.
    So, they were culpable of community responsibility by failing to bring Jesus to justice as they were supposed to do so as per Deuteronomy 21:1-9.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    There was No first-century Christian support for any invasion.
    Jesus and his followers did Not even get involved in the issues of the day between the Jews verses the Romans.
    So-called Christians ( Christendom ) support invasion.
    Jesus forewarned that MANY would ' come in his name ' but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23.
     
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  11. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    Would it not be more apporpiate to call them "nominal" Christians. In name only.
     
  12. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    I think he was talking about the Invasion of Iraq in a previous post.
     
  13. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    I don't believe that's true.
    Jesus was executed for violent treason.

    The Legend of the Christ was not based on Jesus, it was based on what Jesus's conspirators could talk about, out loud.
    In the presence of a well-known Roman agent, "Apostle Paul".
    Tom
     
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  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I must admit that at the time I actually supported the war; but I was a teenager and I didn't know anything. Later on I realized it was all nonsense and I needed to pray for forgiveness. Because our leaders are dragging us into wars on false pretenses with their own twisted aims in mind. We should stand for good things; we don't need to build an empire or kill people in foreign countries. In the gulf war the infamous throwing babies out of incubators bit was most likely completely staged propaganda by American news. So no surprise that George jr. had to finish the job his dad started.

    But as to your question. I think Christians just buy into the propaganda. They don't really think it through. Everyone in America is bipartisan and just goes along with their party politics. It's easy to justify things in your own mind if you just listen to the MSM all day. Like supposedly anti-war liberals supporting Obama's "Arab spring" madness which resulted in the mess that is Syria today and Hillary Clinton saying "we came, we saw, he died, hahaha" talking about Gaddafi. And Obama was going to invade Syria also.

    So both parties do the same things. I don't support any of their wars now; because I don't trust them at all.
     
  15. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    I'm a living pacifist, I advocate against war unless you redefine, and seperate it from violence.
     
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  16. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    I don't claim to be a mind reader.
    Christian means someone who identifies as a Christian.

    Are you one of those people who believes that Christianity is a tiny little cult, that almost nobody really believes in? I've known a lot of Christians like that too.
    Tom
     
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  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Besides trumped-up charges of treason, also sedition and injured majesty.
    Jesus was King of God's Kingdom (Daniel 2:44) so No threat to the earthly kingdom governments of his day.
    Not Pilate (political) but the corrupted religious leaders lead the people to turn on Jesus.
    This is why the people were held guilty of community responsibility - Acts of the Apostles 2:22; 3:15
    They failed to bring righteous Jesus to justice as per Deuteronomy 21:1-9
     
  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    That you have figured out the dating system is nice, but it can't change a heart. It best its a sign, like the rainbow is a sign. People see rainbows all the time, but following them doesn't lead to gold.

    I appreciate and admire your hard work.
     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The text says nothing of the kind. I think that's just another Christian retrofit.
    These sorts of 'prophetic' games with numbers remind me of Martin Gardner's chapter 15 on The Great Pyramid in Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science and the purported 'divinations' and 'prophecies' that can be obtains by juggling the figures obtained. Just for fun he shows how you can 'prophesy' using the dimensions of the Washington Monument. In short, as long as you know the result you want, you can always find or supply figures that appear to support that result. Another unarguable point he makes is that a successful unlikely prophecy is of itself vastly more likely to be written after the event (while purporting to be earlier) than to be an actual example of a successful prophecy.
    No, you edit the quote to suit your argument. It actually says:

    Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing;
    and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
    Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.
    27 And he [the anointed one] shall make a strong covenant with many for one week;
    and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease;
    and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."​

    So in 9:26, 'cut off' plainly doesn't mean 'killed''; but survives to 'have nothing'. He's AN anointed one, not THE anointed one; Jesus was NEVER anointed in Jewish terms, and being neither a military, civil or religious leader of the Jews fits no Jewish description of a messiah. 'Its [the city, or the sanctuary's] end shall come with a flood' rules out Jerusalem and the Temple, since the Roman sack of Jerusalem didn't end under water. And so on.
    You're making a circular argument ─ that Jesus must have started preaching in 29 CE because that's 3½ years before his death, and that proves the figure 3½ years is a valid prophecy. In fact you have no biblical basis for saying Jesus started preaching in 29 CE or that he was crucified in 33 CE, nor any convincing answer to those who say he preached for one year and was crucified in 30 CE (which may also be untrue).
    But as I pointed out above, 'cut off' can't mean 'killed' in Daniel because the person said to be anointed goes on to do further things.

    In the whole of the bible there's not a single credible example of prophecy as supernatural foreknowledge.
     
    #79 blü 2, Sep 20, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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  20. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like both countries are being bratty kids. Diplomacy is much better and less bloody.

    So, in war, you're telling me I will be wasting time asking people if they are of the same faith as me instead of shooting at the people shooting at me? Why is that even relevant?

    Just because I'm shipped out doesn't mean the President has a gun to my head telling me to shoot. I could just go over and find some popcorn and let everyone else who's trigger happy save me the trouble. :p

    I'm not a nationalist. Being of another country is hardly enough to make me want to kill someone. Besides, I have enough fears over what my own country is doing.

    Oh, btw, I call myself a "post-Christian". I remain a theist, but I no longer believe Christianity knows what it's talking about.

    Hard to tell since he attacks people with a whip and vandalizes stuff that doesn't belong to him.

    Exactly.

    What about if it's objective one side, no matter what their religion is, is causing actual objective harm to others?

    And yet so many people are actually executed. Guess this was a one-time deal, huh?

    Wow. Are you from the US? Name me a SINGLE country without a lot of blood on its hands.

    Are you expecting us to know who you are at war? Does everyone start off before the battle introducing themselves?

    Ah, WW2, that lovely little spat where the US gladly vaporized even children.

    I did. While I was reading about the history of autism (a book called NeuroTribes), it went over all the horrific eugenics stuff our country (the US) was doing before Nazis were even a thing.

    LOL. The people doing it have been Christian often as not.

    Yeah. War is often about some lazy jerks who have to have other people do their fights for them. I'd rather see the leaders duke it out like the old days. :)

    Not really, but thanks for playing.

    And I smell the author of this story kissing the butts of Romans. He was involved with an attack at the Temple, where he himself chased people with a whip and vandalized other people's property. He had a history of destroying trees and pigs and such. Also it doesn't really matter whether Jesus was doing anything wrong or not. Romans didn't care. They weren't exactly in love with due process. Pilate was such a horrible person in an empire filled with horrible people that he was banished.

    How does Yahweh think of this? I thought He was a jealous God.

    Not really. The bible shows us that Yahweh, in a more obscure and earlier tale, was assigned Hebrews by El. Even Jesus said he only came for Jews. That's not the entire earth.

    But in the bible God and Jesus are rather racist. Even for the group of people they were actually interested in, bad things happened to those poor people all the time. God would promise to protect His people and then plot their demise mere paragraphs later.

    Hang on, I need to pee I'm laughing so hard. He didn't persecute Jews or Roma or whatever?

    I have a hard time believing this story's accuracy.

    I live in the US in 2020. The people I know are scarier. :p

    Jews didn't kill Jesus. Romans did. Jesus did things that got him on Rome's radar (at least locally ... maybe). There might be some confusion of Jesus' as Barabbas was also known as Jesus and fits the terrorist profile better.

    Jesus is making stuff up because most of the prophets didn't die like that. Maybe a couple were executed by the relevant state involved, but Jesus is telling a story that can be dated to his time or maybe a bit later IIRC.

    Even the people he attacked? The owners of the stuff he destroyed? The swineherd? Were they appreciative?

    Conversations that never happened for 200, Alex.

    To the Romans, he might as well have been Osama Bin Laden. He was a troublemaker and they tended to be rather irritable about such things, particularly out in the boondocks like Judea. The Roman soldiers didn't even like the place anyway. They were only there because some leadership at the top wanted more war funding.

    I honestly can't take people seriously when they are so dedicated to anti-Semitism that they parrot things that just simply couldn't have happened. Jewish leadership had NO power for that kind of thing. Jews are blamed because as Christianity expanded to include gentiles, it became necessary to blame anyone but the gentiles who actually did the thing.

    So what? He was a Roman. He could spend hours describing divine kids from his pantheon alone.

    But he did things to justify those charges, including assault and vandalism. Romans would execute people for far less.

    As did most "Mosaic" texts.

    This is a messiah who says he has to come back to fix the thing he was sent here the first time for.
     
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