What is Your Stance?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yeah, I hear everything you're saying here, but the question seemed pretty loaded and I was thinking to myself were I really, seriously in that position, what would I do? If I'm somehow being forced to fight, who do I fight? The best answer is obviously no-one, but in this case I was forced to choose. I suppose it is tribalism. It's really a no-win question and it seems every answer will be a bit terrible if you can't not fight.

That's precisely the role of principles.

 

[MNoBody]

one can always choose not to fight....
since no one can "make" you do anything,
they can only convince you, to make yourself do it
since they don't pull your puppet strings...you do.....or ....do you!?

 

[Pipiripi]

all the 'demons' here wear skins of men
and apparently jump in and out and around, so good luck with that
better find that mystic sword that isn't a sword...pull it from the stone, tis the test after all

They going in weak bodies not skin, they entered in you. I know many ignore the WORDS of God. I have put my armour of God. Take care without your armour. Bye!

 

[MNoBody]

men, touchy and presumptive.....forgive them, they know not ....apparently.

 

[Heyo]

No.
There are defensive wars.

There are. Which doesn't mean that a defensive war doesn't cause harm.
It may even cause more harm than surrendering. But that is a question that can only be answered in hindsight and I think the vast majority will agree that self defence is not immoral while attack is.

 

[1213]

...
What would you do? Do you go to war? Do you kill members of your same faith or beliefs in country B?...

I think I am a disciple of Jesus (=”Christian”). And in any case, at least I hope, I never attack to another country, even if they would have different thoughts. And in the case, if other nation attacks to my country, it could be possible that I would defend and kill those who cross the border. But even in that case I think it would be better not to kill.

 

[YoursTrue]

Sounds like both countries are being bratty kids. Diplomacy is much better and less bloody.


So, in war, you're telling me I will be wasting time asking people if they are of the same faith as me instead of shooting at the people shooting at me? Why is that even relevant?


Just because I'm shipped out doesn't mean the President has a gun to my head telling me to shoot. I could just go over and find some popcorn and let everyone else who's trigger happy save me the trouble.

I'm not a nationalist. Being of another country is hardly enough to make me want to kill someone. Besides, I have enough fears over what my own country is doing.

Oh, btw, I call myself a "post-Christian". I remain a theist, but I no longer believe Christianity knows what it's talking about.


Hard to tell since he attacks people with a whip and vandalizes stuff that doesn't belong to him.


Exactly.


What about if it's objective one side, no matter what their religion is, is causing actual objective harm to others?


And yet so many people are actually executed. Guess this was a one-time deal, huh?


Wow. Are you from the US? Name me a SINGLE country without a lot of blood on its hands.


Are you expecting us to know who you are at war? Does everyone start off before the battle introducing themselves?


Ah, WW2, that lovely little spat where the US gladly vaporized even children.


I did. While I was reading about the history of autism (a book called NeuroTribes), it went over all the horrific eugenics stuff our country (the US) was doing before Nazis were even a thing.


LOL. The people doing it have been Christian often as not.


Yeah. War is often about some lazy jerks who have to have other people do their fights for them. I'd rather see the leaders duke it out like the old days.


Not really, but thanks for playing.


And I smell the author of this story kissing the butts of Romans. He was involved with an attack at the Temple, where he himself chased people with a whip and vandalized other people's property. He had a history of destroying trees and pigs and such. Also it doesn't really matter whether Jesus was doing anything wrong or not. Romans didn't care. They weren't exactly in love with due process. Pilate was such a horrible person in an empire filled with horrible people that he was banished.


How does Yahweh think of this? I thought He was a jealous God.


Not really. The bible shows us that Yahweh, in a more obscure and earlier tale, was assigned Hebrews by El. Even Jesus said he only came for Jews. That's not the entire earth.


But in the bible God and Jesus are rather racist. Even for the group of people they were actually interested in, bad things happened to those poor people all the time. God would promise to protect His people and then plot their demise mere paragraphs later.


Hang on, I need to pee I'm laughing so hard. He didn't persecute Jews or Roma or whatever?


I have a hard time believing this story's accuracy.


I live in the US in 2020. The people I know are scarier.


Jews didn't kill Jesus. Romans did. Jesus did things that got him on Rome's radar (at least locally ... maybe). There might be some confusion of Jesus' as Barabbas was also known as Jesus and fits the terrorist profile better.


Jesus is making stuff up because most of the prophets didn't die like that. Maybe a couple were executed by the relevant state involved, but Jesus is telling a story that can be dated to his time or maybe a bit later IIRC.


Even the people he attacked? The owners of the stuff he destroyed? The swineherd? Were they appreciative?


Conversations that never happened for 200, Alex.

To the Romans, he might as well have been Osama Bin Laden. He was a troublemaker and they tended to be rather irritable about such things, particularly out in the boondocks like Judea. The Roman soldiers didn't even like the place anyway. They were only there because some leadership at the top wanted more war funding.


I honestly can't take people seriously when they are so dedicated to anti-Semitism that they parrot things that just simply couldn't have happened. Jewish leadership had NO power for that kind of thing. Jews are blamed because as Christianity expanded to include gentiles, it became necessary to blame anyone but the gentiles who actually did the thing.


So what? He was a Roman. He could spend hours describing divine kids from his pantheon alone.


But he did things to justify those charges, including assault and vandalism. Romans would execute people for far less.


As did most "Mosaic" texts.


This is a messiah who says he has to come back to fix the thing he was sent here the first time for.

Actually the Messiah wasn't sent the "first time" to fix things up.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think I am a disciple of Jesus (=”Christian”). And in any case, at least I hope, I never attack to another country, even if they would have different thoughts. And in the case, if other nation attacks to my country, it could be possible that I would defend and kill those who cross the border. But even in that case I think it would be better not to kill.

If a person's conscience tells him not to retaliate or kill, what do you think might motivate him to take that stance?

 

[YoursTrue]

Sounds like both countries are being bratty kids. Diplomacy is much better and less bloody.


So, in war, you're telling me I will be wasting time asking people if they are of the same faith as me instead of shooting at the people shooting at me? Why is that even relevant?


Just because I'm shipped out doesn't mean the President has a gun to my head telling me to shoot. I could just go over and find some popcorn and let everyone else who's trigger happy save me the trouble.

I'm not a nationalist. Being of another country is hardly enough to make me want to kill someone. Besides, I have enough fears over what my own country is doing.

Oh, btw, I call myself a "post-Christian". I remain a theist, but I no longer believe Christianity knows what it's talking about.


Hard to tell since he attacks people with a whip and vandalizes stuff that doesn't belong to him.


Exactly.


What about if it's objective one side, no matter what their religion is, is causing actual objective harm to others?


And yet so many people are actually executed. Guess this was a one-time deal, huh?


Wow. Are you from the US? Name me a SINGLE country without a lot of blood on its hands.


Are you expecting us to know who you are at war? Does everyone start off before the battle introducing themselves?

Perhaps not if they're sent by their respective governments, receiving training on the best way to kill someone, and being revved up for war. Perhaps they're longing for peace and so is their enemy, but they're told and taught to kill whoever they're told to.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Nazis definitely didn't invent racial superiority, so it doesn't surprise me if they were inspired by some Americans.

(Those were especially those who believed in evolution.)

 

[YoursTrue]

In this scenario I haven't really any choice. I would identify more with the Jews though.

Many probably would not want to fight but fight they must if they don't want to suffer at the hands of their government.

 

[Left Coast]

(Those were especially those who believed in evolution.)

Racism has been around quite a bit longer than the idea of evolution. Racists have used many rationalizations for their racism through history. Some of them have been Social Darwinists. Some been creationists.

What's the relevance of this point you keep trying to push to this thread?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am going to ask a question here of anyone and everyone that wishes to join in.

There are people of all different faiths on this board, and those without faith. We have Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, atheist, and the list goes on.

I am going to propound a fictitious scenario and want you to put yourself in it and simply answer what you would do.

Let us say that two countries, A and B, are going to war. You are in one of these countries, let's say A. People of your same belief and or religion are in country B. Let us throw me into the other country as well, so I am of country B.
You are asking if I would join the military service. I wanted to do so after 9-11, but was too old. Once in the military, I must follow orders, and that would include whom to go to war with. If it were an obviously immoral war, then I would refuse, and endure the court martial. Just wars are completely okay.
You have been drafted into the army of country A and told to fight against country B.

Country B has adherents to the same faith or belief system you belong to. I am there as well. You are not given the option to decline military service and you will be given weapons and you will have to kill your enemy in country B.

What would you do? Do you go to war? Do you kill members of your same faith or beliefs in country B?

This is not a far-fethced scenario it has played out many times over the years, including in the 2 major wars of the 20th century, WWI, and WWII.

So please state what faith or belief you are, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. And please state whether you are willing to go to war for your country and kill members of your same faith or belief system in the opposing country that you are at war with in this fictitious scenario. And of course that would mean me as well. Would you pick up arms and perhaps put me to death for being on the opposing side?

ETA:

Country B is doing the same thing as Country A.

I would certainly fight in a just war, regardless of who was on the other side. I even considered jjoining the armed services after 9-11, but was turned down because I was a little too old.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

(Those were especially those who believed in evolution.)

What does that have to do with the time for tea in China? Evolution does not mean Social Evolution. Nor does accepting evolution usually result in a person believing Jews are not human.

 

[1213]

If a person's conscience tells him not to retaliate or kill, what do you think might motivate him to take that stance?

For example the idea to try to save someone.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah, I hear everything you're saying here, but the question seemed pretty loaded and I was thinking to myself were I really, seriously in that position, what would I do? If I'm somehow being forced to fight, who do I fight? The best answer is obviously no-one, but in this case I was forced to choose. I suppose it is tribalism. It's really a no-win question and it seems every answer will be a bit terrible if you can't not fight.

Yeah, but Jewish lives aren't worth more than other lives. Do you think you'd be penalized more by God if you killed a Jew than if you killed your fellow gentile? If so, that is terribly racist.

 

[Rival]

Yeah, but Jewish lives aren't worth more than other lives. Do you think you'd be penalized more by God if you killed a Jew than if you killed your fellow gentile? If so, that is terribly racist.

No, of course not. You're right that all lives are precious.

But I'm confused. How else is one to answer the OP? You have to pick a side and fight. You're being forced to. I picked the side I identify with most because I identify with it, not because I hate the people on the other side. If it's that or being shot, I'm going to try to preserve my life. What other possible way can one answer unless 'I'd rather die'? Well, I'm being honest that I wouldn't rather die in this situation.

 

[Rival]

I'm still confused about this question. What's the point of it? What's it trying to prove? Are all answers meant to be terrible so we can all look bad or something?

 

[Muffled]

I believe my responsibility is to God first and country second. Chances are without an intervention from God I would fight for my country if it was in the right. I wouldn't fight for my country if it wanted to pick on a weak neighboring country just to annex it. Russia in the Crimea comes to mind.

 

[YoursTrue]

Racism has been around quite a bit longer than the idea of evolution. Racists have used many rationalizations for their racism through history. Some of them have been Social Darwinists. Some been creationists.

What's the relevance of this point you keep trying to push to this thread?

The point is that God did not create men to dominate over each other, but that is what happened. We all have a certain history and attach ourselves to a history. In other words, what happened to our relatives, our close friends, etc., is important to many. I find it interesting that many embraced the idea of eugenics years ago and some rather well educated people used this to perform enforced sterlilizations on certain groups. Declaring their own superiority, of course. Including the right to live. In fact, right now the news has it that women in the migration detention centers in the U.S. are now receiving sterilizations they never asked for. I agree with you that the idea of racial superiority has probably affected humanity for a long time.