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What is Your Stance?

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I am going to ask a question here of anyone and everyone that wishes to join in.

There are people of all different faiths on this board, and those without faith. We have Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, atheist, and the list goes on.

I am going to propound a fictitious scenario and want you to put yourself in it and simply answer what you would do.

Let us say that two countries, A and B, are going to war. You are in one of these countries, let's say A. People of your same belief and or religion are in country B. Let us throw me into the other country as well, so I am of country B.

You have been drafted into the army of country A and told to fight against country B.

Country B has adherents to the same faith or belief system you belong to. I am there as well. You are not given the option to decline military service and you will be given weapons and you will have to kill your enemy in country B.

What would you do? Do you go to war? Do you kill members of your same faith or beliefs in country B?

This is not a far-fethced scenario it has played out many times over the years, including in the 2 major wars of the 20th century, WWI, and WWII.

So please state what faith or belief you are, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. And please state whether you are willing to go to war for your country and kill members of your same faith or belief system in the opposing country that you are at war with in this fictitious scenario. And of course that would mean me as well. Would you pick up arms and perhaps put me to death for being on the opposing side?

ETA:

Country B is doing the same thing as Country A.
 
Last edited:

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
So please state what faith or belief you are, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. And please state whether you are willing to go to war for your country and kill members of your same faith or belief system in the opposing country that you are at war with in this fictitious scenario. And of course that would mean me as well. Would you pick up arms and perhaps put me to death for being on the opposing side?
If we say 'It depends' is that a 'Yes'?

This question is relevant to my answer: if my country goes to war, and I pay taxes, am I going to war? What would Jesus say I should do in such a case? Would he say that I should give to Caesar what is Caesar's like he said to the Jews in the gospels, or would he see my situation differently? Would he tell me to stop paying taxes and to resist? This matters, because the taxes are used for warfare and a lot of it. Or maybe this question arises only because I call myself a US citizen? Would he say that I shouldn't call myself that?

Also what if its only war through robots? I don't go myself or send any Christians, just killer drones? Does this change the question?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Vehemently Prolifer non-theist here.

Here's where the problem is:
You are not given the option to decline military service and you will be given weapons and you will have to kill your enemy in country B.

It's nothing to do with the theological flavor of anyone. I'm opposed to war. I'd sign up, nobody would have to force me, if I were fighting to defend my country. But I've never been in a position remotely like that.

"You will have to kill your enemy in country B"? I've no enemies in any country.

Someone might try to force me to fight people I have no personal beef with. But then, they are my real enemy. The elite here in country A, trying to force me to kill people in country B, that's who are my enemy.
Tom
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I am going to ask a question here of anyone and everyone that wishes to join in.

There are people of all different faiths on this board, and those without faith. We have Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, atheist, and the list goes on.

I am going to propound a fictitious scenario and want you to put yourself in it and simply answer what you would do.

Let us say that two countries, A and B, are going to war. You are in one of these countries, let's say A. People of your same belief and or religion are in country B. Let us throw me into the other country as well, so I am of country B.

You have been drafted into the army of country A and told to fight against country B.

Country B has adherents to the same faith or belief system you belong to. I am there as well. You are not given the option to decline military service and you will be given weapons and you will have to kill your enemy in country B.

What would you do? Do you go to war? Do you kill members of your same faith or beliefs in country B?

This is not a far-fethced scenario it has played out many times over the years, including in the 2 major wars of the 20th century, WWI, and WWII.

So please state what faith or belief you are, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. And please state whether you are willing to go to war for your country and kill members of your same faith or belief system in the opposing country that you are at war with in this fictitious scenario. And of course that would mean me as well. Would you pick up arms and perhaps put me to death for being on the opposing side?

Have you ever served?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I would absolutely not be killing any Jews. I would desert and attempt to join the other nation.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Eh, there's a few too many things that just can't happen in this scenario for me to have much of a "stance" about it.

A country full of Druids? And on top of that, a country full of Druids who are warsome? Just... bwahahahahaha!

It's so ridiculous I can't even entertain it. And that's overlooking the fact that I'm not eligible for the draft.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I would absolutely not be killing any Jews. I would desert and attempt to join the other nation.

That won't work. There are people of your faith on both sides. And both sides are drafting into the army and sending the people off to war.

I should have stated that Country B is doing the same thing as Country A. I'll add that in.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I don't have a problem going to war if it is for a just reason. I don't care which religion my enemy is. I follow Germanic Heathenry and am Left-Hand Path. Germanic religion has many war deities and the indigenous Germanic tribal culture was very martial, so we have no problem killing if we need to. The main symbol of the religion is a war hammer, even. We don't care which gods you pray to or don't. I don't have to especially love or care about someone just because they pray to the same gods as me.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
A person's faith is far less important to me than the reason for going to war.

If country B intends to invade and enslave us all, I would fight against them. Fighting other Pagans wouldn't deter me. If it was my country planning on doing the enslaving, I'd probably either refuse to fight or desert. If both countries had the same idea, I would fight whoever presented the biggest threat to those I love.

However, there are so many other factors involved here that I can't go through them all. For example, if I think my country is in the wrong but then somebody from the other side attacks my family, I would fight them.

Furthermore, I've never fought in a war and so my answers can only be based on how I think I would behave. When the bombs start to fall, my behaviour may end up being nothing like I would have thought.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
If we say 'It depends' is that a 'Yes'?

This question is relevant to my answer: if my country goes to war, and I pay taxes, am I going to war? What would Jesus say I should do in such a case? Would he say that I should give to Caesar what is Caesar's like he said to the Jews in the gospels, or would he see my situation differently? Would he tell me to stop paying taxes and to resist? This matters, because the taxes are used for warfare and a lot of it. Or maybe this question arises only because I call myself a US citizen? Would he say that I shouldn't call myself that?

Also what if its only war through robots? I don't go myself or send any Christians, just killer drones? Does this change the question?

You only stated the first part of what Jesus said. He said to give Caesar's things to Caesar but God's things to God.

What would Jesus do in such a case? Since you asked that this is what Jesus said:

No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends.-John 15:13.

Now some have used this to mean that they would go to war and die fighting for their country. But Jesus did not do that. He actually peacefully surrendered his life for his friends.

The Bible clearly teaches we have to obey the superior authorities, be law-abiding citizens. But if the authority commands you to do something against God's commands you are under no obligation to obey.

The 3 young Hebrews displayed this. They were told to bow down and worship an idol to the king of Babylon. They refused, and when brought before Nebuchadnezzar and they were told they were going to die if they did not obey, this is their response:

O Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If it must be, our God whom we serve is able to rescue us from the burning fiery furnace, O king, and to rescue us from your hand.  But even if he does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold that you have set up.”-Daniel 3:16-18.

ETA:
I don't think robots skirt the issue. Let us say you are told to help make the robots that will go kill the Christians in the other country.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
A person's faith is far less important to me than the reason for going to war.

If country B intends to invade and enslave us all, I would fight against them. Fighting other Pagans wouldn't deter me. If it was my country planning on doing the enslaving, I'd probably either refuse to fight or desert.

However, there are so many other factors involved here that I can't go through them all. For example, if I think my country is in the wrong but then somebody from the other side attacks my family, I would fight them.

Furthermore, I've never fought in a war and so my answers can only be based on how I think I would behave. When the bombs start to fall, my behaviour may end up being nothing like I would have thought.

So it doesn't really matter if they were of the same faith or not. What faith are you?
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I don't have a problem going to war if it is for a just reason. I don't care which religion my enemy is. I follow Germanic Heathenry and am Left-Hand Path. Germanic religion has many war deities and the indigenous Germanic tribal culture was very martial, so we have no problem killing if we need to. The main symbol of the religion is a war hammer, even. We don't care which gods you pray to or don't. I don't have to especially love or care about someone just because they pray to the same gods as me.

Thank you for your honest reply. So you would have no problem murdering me in war, or anyone else for that matter. Many Germans prior to you indeed have behaved in the same manner.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Thank you for your honest reply. So you would have no problem murdering me in war, or anyone else for that matter. Many Germans prior to you indeed have behaved in the same manner.
Why are you taking it personally? Are you just trying to make people who aren't pacifists look bad? I don't know you. I assume you're American so you wouldn't be drafted. So if a soldier killed you, that would be a war crime (as you would be a civilian not partaking in the war effort).

Germanic =/= German. Nice try on attempting to insult me as a Nazi.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Ok. So we got two pagans who would murder me in war here.

I think you both gave the most honest answers. I am interested to see if people of other faiths will be as forthcoming.

I may or may not kill you in a war. As I say, there are too many factors surrounding this issue.

Are you trying to shoot my younger brother? Yes, I'd try to kill you for that.

Are you hiding in a cellar with your arms wrapped around your kids? In that case, I wouldn't kill you.

Your faith wouldn't make a difference to me either way.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Have you ever served?

Both my grandfathers served in WWII. One in the European Theater of war, in the 2nd Calvary Division, a tank division, fighting in the Battle of the Bulge against Hitler and the Nazis, and the other fought in the Pacific Theater as a marine on a PT boat, and was in the battle of Okinawa.

I will go into myself and what I would do later on. I am not ignoring your question I will get around to it.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Why are you taking it personally? Are you just trying to make people who aren't pacifists look bad? I don't know you. I assume you're American so you wouldn't be drafted. So if a soldier killed you, that would be a war crime (as you would be a civilian not partaking in the war effort).

Germanic =/= German. Nice try on attempting to insult me as a Nazi.

Keep around in the thread, I will eventually explain things more in detail. What I said did give you some thought for introspection. And indeed that is what the exercise is for. It has happened many times in the past, and can happen in the future. As I stated above this post, I had two grandfathers who fought in WWII, both proclaimed to be Christian, and the Japanese weren't Christians for the most part but there were some, but the majority of WWI and II were fought majorly in lands of Christendom and the behavior of Christians on both sides of the war broke the faith of many people. Not just them though.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Keep around in the thread, I will eventually explain things more in detail. What I said did give you some thought for introspection. And indeed that is what the exercise is for. It has happened many times in the past, and can happen in the future. As I stated above this post, I had two grandfathers who fought in WWII, both proclaimed to be Christian, and the Japanese weren't Christians for the most part but there were some, but the majority of WWI and II were fought majorly in lands of Christendom and the behavior of Christians on both sides of the war broke the faith of many people. Not just them though.
I'm aware of that. WW2 broke the spirits of entire countries. Europe is still heavily traumatized by it.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I'm aware of that. WW2 broke the spirits of entire countries. Europe is still heavily traumatized by it.

I will share an experience with you. I have used this thought exercise with people before.

I was in my wife's home city in Mexico at the time and there was a group of Mormons. Now we ran into both male and female Mormons. The male pair I met one was from Utah, and one from Texas, and the one from Utah on another occasion and the other was from Mexico City. And the female pair were the same, one was from Texas, the other from Mexico City.

Now I asked the same question to all of them. The one from Utah seemed to be the one in charge he was the most outspoken among them. I asked him with the Mormon from Texas the same question as above. If they were told by the United States to fight against Mexico would they be willing to do it, even if their Mormon brothers and sisters were on the opposing side. The naive and friendly Texan blurted out of course not! He had a good heart. Couldn't even think of it. The one from Utah thought it over and then said, I need to think about this further. I don't know. But I think that probably I would be willing. And later on after I saw him again with the Mormon from Mexico City he said he would have a clear conscious. And I said he was answering correctly because Mormons fought in WWII, both for the Americans and the Germans.

I noticed the response of the Mormon from Mexico City as his brother elder Mormon he was with said he was willing to go to war and kill him and his fellow Mexican Mormons.

I later was approached by the Mormon women at the city plaza. And asked them the same question. Both the women Mormons said they would not fight against each other. I asked them what they thought that the elder so-and-so from Utah was willing to kill the Mormon from Mexico city in said scenario. They both actually stopped talking and just stared at me. And the conversation ended right there.
 
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