1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured What is Your Stance?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eyes to See, Sep 18, 2020.

  1. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,153
    Ratings:
    +3,531
    Religion:
    Spiritual but not religious
    Sure there were parallels between the nazis and their opponents, for example they both ate food and drank water, this does not imply that the opposing sides were equal, or that these things are inherently wrong just because they are parallels.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2020
    Messages:
    698
    Ratings:
    +552
    Religion:
    Christian
    It is only fair I take the time to answer my own question. It was interesting to see the varying replies and the reasoning you gave as you contemplated the scenario in the OP. Sadly, there have been many who did not have the fortune to just imagine the scenario.

    Jesus said that love among his followers would be the key identifying mark of true Christianity:

    "By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”-John 13:35.

    On the night before Jesus was put to death as he was being betrayed Peter pulled a sword to protect his master and cut off the ear of Malchus. Jesus reached out and healed the slave's ear, then told Peter:

    Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword."-Matthew 26:52.

    Jesus also made this statement about his followers: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."-John 17:16.

    A true Christian is a follower of Christ. He was peaceful. When Pontius Pilate asked Jesus if he was a king, Jesus replied that his kingdom was not from this source. That is earthly. He was letting Pilate know he did not have to worry about Jesus trying to cause insurrection or sedition as was falsely being charged. In fact when they tried to make him king he refused.

    But Jesus is now reigning as king in heaven. And he has the legal claim to rule the earth. His father has given it to him as scripture promised:

    Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
    He said to me: “You are my son;
    Today I have become your father.
    Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance
    And the ends of the earth as your possession.

    -Psalm 2:7, 8.

    The Bible says that all human governments are in opposition to God's kingdom rule and thus will be done away with. A Christian is a citizen of God's kingdom and thus does not take part of the wars of earthly nations.

    Jesus' real followers, the Christians in the first century did not remain soldiers after becoming his followers, and it was unthinkable for them to take part in the wars of this world:

    The Encyclopedia of Religion and War states: “The earliest followers of Jesus rejected war and military service,” recognizing those practices as “incompatible with the love ethic of Jesus and the injunction to love one’s enemies.” Likewise, German theologian Peter Meinhold said of those early disciples of Jesus: “Being a Christian and a soldier was considered irreconcilable.”

    https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/why-dont-you-go-to-war/

    There was a thread posted yesterday by the user Psalm23 asked "What is Love?"

    True love is being willing to surrender your life for your friends. Refusing to kill them because they are of different national or ethnic backgrounds.

    And it is only the meek and those who have love among each other that will inherit the earth.

    Now, instead of people of the same faith and beliefs fighting and slaughtering each other, imagine them all serving the true God Jehovah in peace and unity and love.

    I thought the following is quite appropriate to the subject. Please watch and see how people of all walks of life, all nationalities, all races can live together in harmony and peace. Displaying the true identifying mark of Christianity, and of their God Jehovah, love:

     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ānanda
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    11,713
    Ratings:
    +17,018
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta
    Thanks for the response. The reason I asked is because your idea of war seems a bit unconnected from what it actually is. Infantry accounts for only 15% of the military.

    I served, and my function had nothing to do with picking up a weapon and killing people, and that holds true for most of the armed forces.

    But to answer your question, if ordered to pick up a weapon and kill another person, I would likely end up with a court martial and either be dishonorably discharged or serve time in Leavenworth for disobeying a direct order.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    11,095
    Ratings:
    +6,086
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    I do not fit in with the Kshatriyas from the Sanathana Dharma path (below)
    Of course you can create a hypothetical situation and ask "what you do now"
    In a hypothetical situation my mind is different, so you can as well ask another

    There were four classes in the caste system:
    a) Kshatriyas (kings, governors, and warriors)
    b) Shudras (laborers and service providers)
    c) Vaishyas (cattle herders, agriculturists, artisans, and merchants)
    d) Brahmins (priests and scholars)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    29,003
    Ratings:
    +23,482
    Religion:
    None
    I don't do war unless my children were threatened and the faith of the opposition wouldn't even come into the equation.

    As for your scenario. I don't really associate with any country, born in England with Scottish ancestry, living in France and if anything i consider myself European. So which country? None. I would sit it out or go to prison and protest loudly.

    Oh, i am atheist but i dont see what it has to do with anything
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    11,095
    Ratings:
    +6,086
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    What does ETA mean in this context?
    Google only spat out "Estimated Time of Arrival"

    IF you mean "Country B enters my Country NOW in this moment" AND killing happens NOW THEN I would rather be killed then kill myself
     
  7. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,153
    Ratings:
    +3,531
    Religion:
    Spiritual but not religious
    ETA means Edited To Add
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  8. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ānanda
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    11,713
    Ratings:
    +17,018
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta
    Edited to add.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    30,027
    Ratings:
    +11,018
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    There is a time when Jesus doesn't allow himself to be killed. He resists a crowd that attempts to throw him from a cliff. Paul, too, resists being killed. They only allow themselves to be killed as martyrs.

    Is killing a Christian worse than killing anyone else? I don't think there is a difference before God.

    What about being a soldier? Is this wrong? There a story in which soldiers ask Jesus what they ought to do (Luke 3), and Jesus doesn't tell them to quit the army. He tells them not to extort money and to be content with their pay. Why? Its hard to know, because there are cultural gaps and time gaps. Perhaps quitting would have been a death sentence for them, or perhaps Jesus simply thought that it was Ok for them to be soldiers? Perhaps they were not killing soldiers and were merely tax enforcers? Are they Jewish soldiers against Rome, Roman soldiers? Temple soldiers?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    11,095
    Ratings:
    +6,086
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Thank you both. Double answered, I will never forget this again:D
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  11. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ānanda
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    11,713
    Ratings:
    +17,018
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta
    I didn't see that @danieldemol responded before I did until now.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    11,095
    Ratings:
    +6,086
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    I know. The green smiley face was just because hearing it twice makes it better to remember (now I get older):)
    And coincidence does not exist. I created a new post with some interesting info, but decided to not post it, but getting double info myself now, I changed my mind and will post it after all. Maybe one or two find it useful.
     
  13. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2020
    Messages:
    698
    Ratings:
    +552
    Religion:
    Christian
    I appreciate your response as well..

    And it is true not everyone involved in the war effort is out on the front lines. Jehovah's Witnesses, as you may know, or may not, were thrown into the Nazi concentration camps because of their Christian neutrality. In fact they were the only organization that was persecuted by Hitler because of their religious stance. Most JWs in the camps could get out if they only signed a letter declaring their betrayal of Jehovah God.

    And thusly even in the camps when they were coerced into making materials, such as the women being forced to make uniforms for the war effort they refused. They considered any part of the war effort, even if it was making munitions, or uniforms was against their Christian conscience.

    Here is an excerpt about some excahnages between Nazi SS Cheif Heinrich Himmler and these Christian sisters who refused to serve any part of the Nazi war machine. and Himmler's later reaction:

    Under the rule of Nazi Germany, thousands of our brothers and sisters were sent to concentration camps. Hitler and SS Chief Heinrich Himmler hated Jehovah’s Witnesses. According to one sister, Himmler said to a group of our sisters in one concentration camp: “Your Jehovah may reign in heaven, but here upon earth it is we who rule! We’ll show you who will endure longer, you or we!” What helped Jehovah’s people remain faithful?

    Those Bible Students knew that God’s Kingdom had begun ruling in 1914. They were not surprised at the intense opposition they faced. However, Jehovah’s people were convinced that no human government could stop God’s purpose from succeeding. Hitler could not wipe out true worship or set up a government that would shove aside God’s Kingdom. Our brothers were convinced that one way or another, Hitler’s rule would end.

    The conviction of those brothers and sisters was not misplaced. Before long, the Nazi regime collapsed, and Heinrich Himmler—the man who said “here upon earth it is we who rule”—was running for his life. While doing so, he encountered Brother Lübke, a former prisoner whom he recognized. Thoroughly defeated, Himmler asked Brother Lübke: “Well, Bible Student, what happens now?” Brother Lübke explained to Himmler that Jehovah’s Witnesses knew all along that the Nazi regime would fail and that they would be delivered. Himmler—the man who previously had so much to say about Jehovah’s Witnesses—was finally speechless. Shortly thereafter, he committed suicide. The point? Our study of the Bible, including its prophecies, can build unbreakable faith in God and give us confidence during times of trial.—2 Pet. 1:19-21.-The Watchtower July, 2020 pp 12, 13.

    https://www.jw.org/en/library/magaz...ly-2020/Be-Convinced-That-You-Have-the-Truth/
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    16,566
    Ratings:
    +7,516
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    Religious beliefs and national boundaries are irrelevant. Warfare as aggression is a crime against all humanity that makes warfare as defense unfortunately necessary. This should determine which army we join, and who we fight against.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    31,930
    Ratings:
    +12,907
    Religion:
    Philosophical Buddhism
    People will fight about just about anything. I suppose I'd likely be just as fanatical as my brothers in arms. So I'd likely fight, if they fight alongside.

    I'd be more loyal with the people I know. Not with strangers.
     
  16. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2020
    Messages:
    698
    Ratings:
    +552
    Religion:
    Christian

    Actually, Jesus on several occasions resisted when the crowds and religious leaders tried to murder him for being a good man and preaching the good news, and exposing their hypocrisy. We are told why he evaded death at these times:

    So they began seeking to get hold of him, but no one laid a hand on him, for his hour had not yet come.-John 7:30.

    Jesus knew that he had to die on Nisan 14, 33 C. E. Before his time had come he did not allow himself to be caught.

    And they rose up and rushed him outside the city, and they led him to the brow of the mountain on which their city had been built, in order to throw him down headlong.  But he went right through their midst and continued on his way.-Luke 4:29-30.

    When his time came he allowed everything to take place according to prophesy.

    Later on after Jesus died and and God turned his attention to the nations there were even high Roman army officials that became Christian, such as the Roman centurion Cornelius. They did not remain soldiers after having converted to serving the living God as followers of Christ.
     
  17. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    25,164
    Ratings:
    +16,316
    Religion:
    None
    Also, most of those people were Christian.
    Tom
     
  18. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    25,164
    Ratings:
    +16,316
    Religion:
    None
    Do you consider the USA a Christian nation?
    Tom
     
  19. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy New Year!
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    5,239
    Ratings:
    +7,394
    Religion:
    Buddhish
    On all sides, yep.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,159
    Ratings:
    +1,109
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Depends if the war is justified or not. I don't think you factored that into your question. A justified war is different than an unjust war. So for example there could be well meaning (but ignorant) Christians fighting for Nazi Germany and you have to fight them even though you're also Christian. Why? Because you hate them? No, because you have to stop the Nazis. So is the war just for your side? That's the first question a person should ask themselves no matter what country they are part of. And if not then ... figure out what you need to do.

    No, I would consider that a war crime. I could fight those who opposed me with weapons but I wouldn't put prisoners to death.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...