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What is your opinion on internet privacy?

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Alceste I am going to tell you like I told Kathryn, did you read my previous comments word for word? The message my friend read was old. Besides my ex and I are good friends and the feelings I used to have are no longer. I apologize but its a bit frustrating when I am met with girl power when I didn't even do nothing which brings me back to the whole privacy issue. When can person business be disclosed? What is the proper communicating in dating relationships that allow such disclosures?

OK, so by your own admission, you are not discussing simply YOUR one relationship - you are asking for the parameters IN GENERAL.

And so, we are not looking just at this one weird little relationship in your whole life - we are also discussing the subject as a whole - WHEN is it appropriate, if ever?

When we discuss the whole subject, not just your one example, we're going to bring all sorts of "what ifs" and other scenarios into the discussion. That seems very clear in all the posts responding to your OP.

It has nothing to do with girl power - though these particular powers do happen to be awesome.

wonder-woman11.jpg
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think a good rule of thumb is your business is your business, and your business is no one elses business. Abusive ******** always find ways to rationalize snooping into your business, though. "You made me look at your emails by being untrustworthy". Well, if you can't trust someone, that's not a sign you should read their emails -- it's a sign you should dump them.
 
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I agree. If this woman already came into a relationship with pre-conceived notions then what the hell is she in a relationship. I also find personal experiences and "haunches" as reasons to be most stupid. That's like me saying "I am with this hot woman, but she is too hot to be with a guy like me and I think she may be cheating on me, let me see if I can find out."

There are a lot of insecure women unfortunately. Some women carry these insecurities over into other relationships and the guy can be a sincerely good man but all the "nagging" and questioning drives them away. Yes, this happened to me. I remember I was at the pub one night and I received 20 text messages about my whereabouts mind you, I told this person where I would be, so I got frustrated and dumped her. If I want to hear nagging from a female of this kind might as well buy a puppy.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I think a good rule of thumb is your business is your business, and your business is no one elses business. Abusive ******** always find ways to rationalize snooping into your business, though. "You made me look at your emails by being untrustworthy". Well, if you can't trust someone, that's not a sign you should read their emails -- it's a sign you should dump them.


Knowledge is power.

I am not saying that in casual or non monogamous relationships, snooping is appropriate. In fact, I think it's highly INAPPROPRIATE.

However, relationships in which both partners have invested years of trust, emotion, monogamy, finances, etc are a different story in my opinion.

When a partner is engaged in relationships which fall outside the agreed upon parameters of a monogamous relationship - they're usually not truthful about it. So that sort of blows the "let's talk about it" approach out of the water. That's the LAST thing they want to talk about. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be hiding it. Hell, they'd be talking about it. "Hey, honey, I met this really hot chick and we're hooking up this weekend!" In the words of Borat - "Pause NOT!"

When you are deeply invested in a relationship where monogamy is the mutual expectation and agreement, and you have reason to believe that your partner has begun, shall we say, redefining that relationship without talking first with you about it - I say you have the right to that information. And since you won't get it from your partner, you'll have to go elsewhere.

Sexual partners have a right to know if their partner is sleeping with other people.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
When you are deeply invested in a relationship where monogamy is the mutual expectation and agreement, and you have reason to believe that your partner has begun, shall we say, redefining that relationship without talking first with you about it - I say you have the right to that information. And since you won't get it from your partner, you'll have to go elsewhere.
Is your position that it is not ok to invade anothers privacy UNLESS it directly effects yourself?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Is your position that it is not ok to invade anothers privacy UNLESS it directly effects yourself?

Well, off the top of my head, I can't see why it would be appropriate to invade a dating partner's privacy if you're not monogamous- if they're dating other people and you haven't agreed to be monogamous, it's none of your business who else they are hooking up with.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Well, off the top of my head, I can't see why it would be appropriate to invade a dating partner's privacy if you're not monogamous- if they're dating other people and you haven't agreed to be monogamous, it's none of your business who else they are hooking up with.
That doesn't really answer the question.

The reason I ask is because I take the position that it is never OK to invade someone elses privacy.
Even if you have been married to them for 50 years.

Now do not get me wrong.
I can understand some of the instances where people invade other peoples privacy.
However, understanding the why and in some cases even agreeing with some situations of the invasion of privacy does not make it OK.

From what I have seen in this thread, it seems that invasion of privacy is one of those things that most people do not like when their privacy is invaded but also do not hesitate to justify their invading someone else's privacy..
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Well, Mestemia, as I've stated before, all relationships are different - and bring out different aspects of our personality. So to me it's just not that cut and dried. It's not always OK or always wrong to me - too many variables.

I put my money where my mouth is - it would be fine with me if my husband opened my mail, or snooped around in my online accounts. I have nothing to hide, and he's my best friend, my soul mate, my confidante, and my only lover. He doesn't mind either - but then, we've both been cheated on, in the most despicable ways, in which the internet played an integral part, in our past marriages. So - to us, it's important to have a lot of transparency in our lives.

That doesn't mean that we DO open each other's mail or snoop around in each other's accounts. In fact, we don't. But - I'll give you an example - my husband works out of town, and sometimes he'll get an important piece of mail. When I talk with him and tell him about it, he always asks, "Well, did you open it?" I always say, "No," because I haven't. Then he says, "Well, honey, why not? If it looks important, open it - I don't care."

Sometimes when I'm driving or real busy, I'll ask him to look inside my purse to get something. You should see the look of horror on his face. He feels that there's something inherently wrong about digging around in a woman's purse. He basically just won't do it.

My point is this - we respect each other's privacy, but within reason. We're not overly suspicious, but we're realistic about our own experiences. It's precisely BECAUSE we are so open and honest with each other that we have absolutely no need to snoop. But our radars work well too - we can usually tell when others are lying to us or hiding stuff. If either of us started exhibiting deceitful behavior, we know that the other has the right to ascertain the truth, by whatever means possible.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Well, Mestemia, as I've stated before, all relationships are different - and bring out different aspects of our personality. So to me it's just not that cut and dried. It's not always OK or always wrong to me - too many variables.

I put my money where my mouth is - it would be fine with me if my husband opened my mail, or snooped around in my online accounts. I have nothing to hide, and he's my best friend, my soul mate, my confidante, and my only lover. He doesn't mind either - but then, we've both been cheated on, in the most despicable ways, in which the internet played an integral part, in our past marriages. So - to us, it's important to have a lot of transparency in our lives.

That doesn't mean that we DO open each other's mail or snoop around in each other's accounts. In fact, we don't. But - I'll give you an example - my husband works out of town, and sometimes he'll get an important piece of mail. When I talk with him and tell him about it, he always asks, "Well, did you open it?" I always say, "No," because I haven't. Then he says, "Well, honey, why not? If it looks important, open it - I don't care."

Sometimes when I'm driving or real busy, I'll ask him to look inside my purse to get something. You should see the look of horror on his face. He feels that there's something inherently wrong about digging around in a woman's purse. He basically just won't do it.

My point is this - we respect each other's privacy, but within reason. We're not overly suspicious, but we're realistic about our own experiences. It's precisely BECAUSE we are so open and honest with each other that we have absolutely no need to snoop. But our radars work well too - we can usually tell when others are lying to us or hiding stuff. If either of us started exhibiting deceitful behavior, we know that the other has the right to ascertain the truth, by whatever means possible.
But you are not describing INVASION of privacy.
You flat out said that you and and your husband have each given the other permission to look.

The second you give some one permission to "snoop" (for lack of a better term) anything they find is not the result of invasion of privacy.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
But you are not describing INVASION of privacy.
You flat out said that you and and your husband have each given the other permission to look.

The second you give some one permission to "snoop" (for lack of a better term) anything they find is not the result of invasion of privacy.

My stuff, and my husband's stuff online, is password protected. We don't know each other's passwords. But we've at times been online on our laptops, in the same room, and handed the laptop to the other person to show them something (hey, sometimes it's something from this forum!). I guess my husband could join this forum (maybe he already has, who knows) and he could read just about every word I write here. But my point is this - I can hand my laptop or my cellphone or my personal mail to my husband with no worries, passwords or no passwords, because I'm not hiding anything.

You're right -he and I have a mutual agreement to keep things above board. However, I don't ask for his password and he doesn't ask for mine. I don't know if either of us could figure it out, or if he's ever tried to figure mine out. I don't really care one way or the other.

However, if at this stage in our relationship, I found out that he'd been trying, without my knowledge, to get into my accounts - or if I found out that he had been in my accounts without my knowledge, I'd be put out. Not furious, but irritated. Why? Because I've given him absolutely no reason to be suspicious of me. Yes, he works out of town a lot - and if a man was overly suspicious or insecure, that could cause problems, but it doesn't in our case because he's not insecure or controlling or suspicious by nature (though we are both natural born skeptics - but that's different!).

So - I'd be a bit irritated, but I'd also welcome the opportunity to clear the air and discuss why he felt that way. It would be so out of character for him, that I'd be concerned - not for what he'd find (which would be nothing) but for his state of mind, and the state of our relationship in his mind.

I wouldn't feel INVADED though - my gosh, when I think of how many different ways he's been inside the most private parts of my mind and my body, looking through my Facebook account seems like a very small thing.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Knowledge is power.

I am not saying that in casual or non monogamous relationships, snooping is appropriate. In fact, I think it's highly INAPPROPRIATE.

However, relationships in which both partners have invested years of trust, emotion, monogamy, finances, etc are a different story in my opinion.

When a partner is engaged in relationships which fall outside the agreed upon parameters of a monogamous relationship - they're usually not truthful about it. So that sort of blows the "let's talk about it" approach out of the water. That's the LAST thing they want to talk about. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be hiding it. Hell, they'd be talking about it. "Hey, honey, I met this really hot chick and we're hooking up this weekend!" In the words of Borat - "Pause NOT!"

When you are deeply invested in a relationship where monogamy is the mutual expectation and agreement, and you have reason to believe that your partner has begun, shall we say, redefining that relationship without talking first with you about it - I say you have the right to that information. And since you won't get it from your partner, you'll have to go elsewhere.

Sexual partners have a right to know if their partner is sleeping with other people.

I don't think I would marry someone I didn't trust. And if I fell out of trust with them, I would leave them. A woman that snooped on me would find herself served with divorce papers. But whatever works for you. I'm just stating what I would do.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Wow - you two sound as if you don't believe that people and relationships shift and change over time.

Marriages and long term relationships are not static - events happen which change us, and that's normal.

That's why it's healthy to reassess your relationship from time to time, and to be aware when the goalposts get moved, with or without your consent.

I doubt that many people who get married and pledge monogamy to each other INTEND to have affairs when they make that pledge. I doubt that many spouses actually EXPECT their new spouse to have affairs when their agreement is monogamy.

But the reality is - it happens sometimes. And like I said before, partners have a right to know if their partner is having sex with someone else. Usually their partner isn't open or honest about this, if the agreement is monogamy. That doesn't remove the right to know from the situation.

To use a non sexual example - I am a bank manager. I know my employees use their phones and iPads (which they own) for personal emails and internet use during working hours from time to time, which is not against our company policy. What IS against our company policy is the ABUSE of that privilege - if using those personal devices degrades the quality or quantity of their work or customer service, it's against company policy.

If their use of those devices violates company policy, the company has the right to take those devices away till the end of the work day. If they discuss work related topics on their personal websites or online, we have the right to terminate their employment, and use their own words to justify that termination. If they use company email or instant messenger, we have the right to read those communications, even though they are password protected.

That being said, I've literally NEVER pulled the files or emails or conversations from any employee - it's not because I can't, it's because so far their actions have not justified such actions on my part. But the right is there. When they agreed to work here, they agreed to the company's right to monitor their personal conversations during worktime or when they involve the bank on an internet forum.

Even as I type this - and though I've never shared on this forum the name of the bank at which I work - this very email falls under that jurisdiction and is subject to review. However, I'm not at all worried, because I haven't said anything which violates company policy.

That's pretty much how I feel about that same level of openness and accountability within a monogamous relationship.
 
I understand however the difference between company policy and marriage is that those rules which you mentioned is that ll relationships don't have standard policy of fidelity. For example while your job allows the use of personal use, other companies don't. Just jobs allow employees to call off sick for only a certain amount of days out of the year, some jobs don't. Just as some people like polyamorous relationships some don't. But where I would go with this is, what I want from my mate I will make clear even during dating of what kind of person I am. Me, I am a very private person and I hope my future mate would respect that. Just because you're married doesn't mean a spouse has an immediate right to find out information about you by looking through your things. I am sorry but there isn't a set standard in 2011 anymore. If there was, people wouldn't be in open relationships. I believe its important to reveal information to a spouse, I just can't justify unwarranted snooping in my private "stash."
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'm not arguing with you, Kathryn. I'm just saying I myself would dump a snoopy ***** in a heartbeat. But you run your life your way -- I'll run mine my way.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I agree, Sunstone - you run your life your way and I'll run my life my way. And I'll bust and then dump a cheating ******* in a heartbeat - and use whatever means necessary to do so.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I think a good rule of thumb is your business is your business, and your business is no one elses business. Abusive ******** always find ways to rationalize snooping into your business, though. "You made me look at your emails by being untrustworthy". Well, if you can't trust someone, that's not a sign you should read their emails -- it's a sign you should dump them.

It's not so clear-cut when you are in the shoes of someone who is being constantly lied to. You forget what it felt like to trust somebody (assuming you ever did), so you don't have total clarity of perception that you don't trust your partner. For me (a person with more than your average allotment of integrity), I felt like I was in a strange land, adapting to strange rules. What should Alice have said to Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum? I don't relate to people who lie. They are inhabitants of a country with unfamiliar norms. They tell you this or that and maybe you know it ain't so, but what then? They appear so convinced of their own statements and they seem so needful for you to be equally convinced. It's their assurances vs. your suspicions. Either they are lying or you have "trust issues". How can you know whether you might be the problem? Can you call somebody a liar to her face without proof? If not, can you walk away without giving any explanation?

I can't do that. I had to be certain I was in the right before I dealt that kind of a blow to my fiance and I had to state the reason he was being ****canned in clear and unambiguous terms. Snooping was part of that picture but in the end he actually told me about one of his indiscretions. (Snooping wasn't enough - all I found was wistful yearning for some ex-girlfriend. It didn't help me trust him, but I said I would marry him so I intended to do it.)
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Alceste, you hit the nail on the head. I am a very forthright person. I would make a terrible spy or undercover agent or witness protection program participant because "what you see is what you get." My emotions are generally easy to decipher.

If I say I'm going to the store - I'm going to the store. I'm not meeting a lover for a clandestine grope. I'm 49 years old and I've never once been unfaithful in a relationship.

When a person starts lying to me, hiding things, being obtuse about simple events and questions (this has happened in relationships several times in my life, so I've gotten pretty savvy about being able to spot the signs), I lose my balance in the relationship. And, you are so right about this, Alceste, one of the HALLMARKS of this shift in a relationship is that suddenly they begin deflecting questions and doubts onto ME - I'm suddenly wrong to doubt their word, I'm insecure, I'm delusional, I'm needy, etc.

Guess what, buddy - NO, I'M NOT. I just know when I'm being lied to, and I DON'T LIKE IT.

Now that I am married to a person who shares my same values and expectations, it's like a load has been lifted from my shoulders. No mind games, no deceit, no doublespeak - and most of all, reciprocated RESPECT. We are both emotionally healthy, open with each other, and protective of EACH OTHER - in other words, we are able to truly put the needs of the other first, because we trust each other.

You can't do that in a relationship where there's no trust or a pattern of deceit, because in that scenario, when you put the other person first, you get **** on.
 
Well being cheated on several times of course you're open to any mthod that obtains truth. That is much clear however everyone hasn't been in your place therefore standard rules on monogamy don't apply to everyone. Going back I can understand Vendetta's position regarding self-esteem and suspicion.

I think when a person goes through continuous infidelity issues they bring that history with them in the next relationship and I do believe in self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to the cycle of let downs. This may not apply to you Kathryn, but I am willing to bet there have been women who have been cheated on over and over and carry their past with them to their next relationship. There has to be something said about women who choose these types of men but that is another story but the point I am trying to make is that because someone who has been in a bad relationship several times over in their life doesn't give them a pass to invade privacy because of suspicion. I don't think snooping only to be proven wrong then evaluating your thought process isn't logical thinking.

For one, even if I found out in that moment that person didn't chest on me there are no gurantees in the future that I will be cheated on. There really are no gurantees even in your marriage Kathryn-except through faith cause at the end that is all we have.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.

Well being cheated on several times of course you're open to any mthod that obtains truth. That is much clear however everyone hasn't been in your place therefore standard rules on monogamy don't apply to everyone. Going back I can understand Vendetta's position regarding self-esteem and suspicion.

Right - that's why I've made it clear repeatedly that my position cannot be a blanket statement for all relationships - even all the relationships in my own life. Each combination of people in a relationship is a different set of dynamics, expectations, etc.

think when a person goes through continuous infidelity issues they bring that history with them in the next relationship and I do believe in self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to the cycle of let downs. This may not apply to you Kathryn, but I am willing to bet there have been women who have been cheated on over and over and carry their past with them to their next relationship.

I agree.

I'm 49 years old and been cheated on twice. I wouldn't call that a pattern or any sort of self fulfilling prophecy. But it was enough to strip me of my naivete and give me what I consider a healthy dose of reality - and skepticism!

the point I am trying to make is that because someone who has been in a bad relationship several times over in their life doesn't give them a pass to invade privacy because of suspicion. I don't think snooping only to be proven wrong then evaluating your thought process isn't logical thinking.

I don't think people have a right to invade the privacy of someone else simply on SUSPICION - it would have to be suspicion based on real actions, facts, etc - not just some hangup in their head.

By the way - I've only "snooped" twice - and I was right twice. So - two for two - I'd say my "hunches" are pretty much on point.

There really are no gurantees even in your marriage Kathryn-except through faith cause at the end that is all we have,

Right on - and if my husband ever starts acting deceitful and weird, I may "snoop" on him as well. But I don't expect that need to arise.
 
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