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What convinced you that Evolution is the truth?

I've read the entire Bible more than once. I am a Christian. That I do not agree with your interpretations and views doesn't make that less so or false. You have no input in the validity of my faith at all. And not just as far as I am concerned, but much further.
That's strange because as believers in Jesus Christ we are commanded to assemble together, to fellowship and care for one another, we are called the BODY of Christ meaning that no part of the body can truly function (properly) or at all without being (CONNECTED) to the rest of the body. See I Corinthians chapter 12. I do this regularly several times a week. This not a boast, simply a fact.

You will no doubt tell me, how do I know whether or not you aren't doing that, I assume you aren't, but tell me if I am wrong.

Your consistent different Interpretations you keep telling me you have, and by the way, I have never heard one, not one of what any of those might be, with the many scriptures I have provided.
The body of Christ comes to together for fellowship, and the building up of one another. This who we are, and God's Spirit makes us one.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
That's strange because as believers in Jesus Christ we are commanded to assemble together, to fellowship and care for one another, we are called the BODY of Christ meaning that no part of the body can truly function (properly) or at all without being (CONNECTED) to the rest of the body. See I Corinthians chapter 12. I do this regularly several times a week. This not a boast, simply a fact.

You will no doubt tell me, how do I know whether or not you aren't doing that, I assume you aren't, but tell me if I am wrong.

Your consistent different Interpretations you keep telling me you have, and by the way, I have never heard one, not one of what any of those might be, with the many scriptures I have provided.
The body of Christ comes to together for fellowship, and the building up of one another. This who we are, and God's Spirit makes us one.
Believe whatever you want to claim for me. It tells me much.

It is what you are claiming regarding the science of interest in this thread that seems to be failing. It seems to be you would rather focus on little old me. Well, good on ya. I would rather see you support your claims rejecting science than read your thoughts on me that are irrelevant and without any real basis in fact.

I'll continue to keep you in my prayers.
 
I remember when I was there. Being in this world, naturally there are signs and teachings everywhere about religion and beliefs, true or not. I was in church many times, mostly for professional reasons as a musician. Yes, I loved the music and enjoyed both the rehearsals with a wonderful choir and organist and conductor. All of us were professionals. In other words, got paid for our time and expertise. One of the songs that I remember now was "Dies Irae" by Verdi. A fabulous piece. God's Day of Wrath. But it kind of scared me, not knowing what it meant but it sounded threatening...no one explained anything to me until later.
Wow, that is amazing! Care to come join us one day!:D I am the Worship Leader at our Church, we are not professionals, we are simple musicians whom Love to Worship our Lord in Song, and in Praises unto his name!
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
That's strange because as believers in Jesus Christ we are commanded to assemble together, to fellowship and care for one another, we are called the BODY of Christ meaning that no part of the body can truly function (properly) or at all without being (CONNECTED) to the rest of the body. See I Corinthians chapter 12. I do this regularly several times a week. This not a boast, simply a fact.

You will no doubt tell me, how do I know whether or not you aren't doing that, I assume you aren't, but tell me if I am wrong.

Your consistent different Interpretations you keep telling me you have, and by the way, I have never heard one, not one of what any of those might be, with the many scriptures I have provided.
The body of Christ comes to together for fellowship, and the building up of one another. This who we are, and God's Spirit makes us one.
It has been enlightening. My church group is meeting, so I have to go.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
That's strange because as believers in Jesus Christ we are commanded to assemble together, to fellowship and care for one another, we are called the BODY of Christ meaning that no part of the body can truly function (properly) or at all without being (CONNECTED) to the rest of the body. See I Corinthians chapter 12. I do this regularly several times a week. This not a boast, simply a fact.

You will no doubt tell me, how do I know whether or not you aren't doing that, I assume you aren't, but tell me if I am wrong.

Your consistent different Interpretations you keep telling me you have, and by the way, I have never heard one, not one of what any of those might be, with the many scriptures I have provided.
The body of Christ comes to together for fellowship, and the building up of one another. This who we are, and God's Spirit makes us one.
At last count, there are 48,000 different interpretations of the Bible and belief in God. That is how many different sects and denominations of Christianity there are. And growing. They all claim to have the one true way.

All you are is a person that has made claims that I cannot verify. I accept your claim of faith even so and recognize some of the traits that I have seen in those similarly disposed, but they are not refuting the topic of discussing or supporting it.
 
Wow, that is amazing! Care to come join us one day!:D I am the Worship Leader at our Church, we are not professionals, we are simple musicians whom Love to Worship our Lord in Song, and in Praises unto his name!
I remember when I was there. Being in this world, naturally there are signs and teachings everywhere about religion and beliefs, true or not. I was in church many times, mostly for professional reasons as a musician. Yes, I loved the music and enjoyed both the rehearsals with a wonderful choir and organist and conductor. All of us were professionals. In other words, got paid for our time and expertise. One of the songs that I remember now was "Dies Irae" by Verdi. A fabulous piece. God's Day of Wrath. But it kind of scared me, not knowing what it meant but it sounded threatening...no one explained anything to me until later.
And I would genuinely be curious to know what the song means to you!
 
At last count, there are 48,000 different interpretations of the Bible and belief in God. That is how many different sects and denominations of Christianity there are. And growing. They all claim to have the one true way.
Please understand, I cannot quit answering, because I am compelled to do so. Within all these denominations, if they are true to the Word of God and teach Jesus Christ is Lord and that salvation is in no other, than we are one in Faith.....But sadly there are many that deny our Lord, and are teaching false doctrine,

I Timothy 4:1 says But the [Holy] Spirit explicitly and unmistakably declares that in later times some will turn away from the faith, paying attention instead to deceitful and seductive spirits and doctrines of demons,

Jesus Christ said HE WILL BUILD HIS CHURCH (Singular) and the gates of Hell will not be able to destroy it. If this is true, then within all of the denominations, there are the wheat and the tares. It's up to us (individually) to decide who we truly are. I too, must answer that same question!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Spinoza makes it seem like God is like a smooshing of particles throughout everywhere. Now if a parent tells a child not to steal, hopefully the child listens. In other words, there are some direct instructions from God in the Bible that can help people live productive and sane lives to an extent.

And Spinoza would acknowledge that, and he said that the role model from where he was coming from was actually Jesus. However, in some other areas he certainly wouldn't agree with you.

BTW, atheists and agnostics can also live a "productive and sane life".
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not really. If he is resurrected, he will not have a choice as to that, -- in other words, if he is resurrected, he will not have a discussion with God about it beforehand. The rest will be up to him.

That's what you believe, but Einstein's word for that was "childish". Now, I'm not saying he was right.

he had no hope for himself as to a future.

Why would you that? Ya know, Jesus said "Let he whom is without sin cast the first stone", so maybe think more about what you're saying as it smacks of judgementalism, which shouldn't be your role.

And hopefully he will learn more about life and God.

Maybe we all should, right?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
BTW, let me also mention that certainty is the enemy of serious theology. For an exercise of this, try and prove Christianity is correct and that Hinduism must supposedly be wrong. Good luck.
I’m certain who God is. (It’s who Jesus worshipped.) Does that make me an “enemy of serious theology”?

I don’t think so.

Now, as to proving which is truth, Christianity or Hinduism:
It’s almost like comparing apples to oranges, and claiming which is the better fruit.

I’ll tell you one thing: Christendom has built a horrible reputation; they have failed big time in adhering to Christ’s commands… they are very blood guilty, for one thing.

But that’s not Jesus’ fault… the blame lies squarely at the feet of the leaders of its churches.

As to searching for truth between Christianity and Hinduism — indeed, any other major religion, it will take longer than one post, because certain claims would have to be established as facts, one being the veracity of 1 John 5:19, which supports Revelation 12:9, the account at Luke 4:5,6, Jesus’ statement @ John 12:31, et.al.

But I noticed that you didn’t answer my questions: Since you are a theist, what part in your view did God play in the existence of our Universe, and exactly how does that agree with science?

Take care, my cousin.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I’m certain who God is. (It’s who Jesus worshipped.) Does that make me an “enemy of serious theology”?

I don’t think so.

Now, as to proving which is truth, Christianity or Hinduism:
It’s almost like comparing apples to oranges, and claiming which is the better fruit.

I’ll tell you one thing: Christendom has built a horrible reputation; they have failed big time in adhering to Christ’s commands… they are very blood guilty, for one thing.

But that’s not Jesus’ fault… the blame lies squarely at the feet of the leaders of its churches.

As to searching for truth between Christianity and Hinduism — indeed, any other major religion, it will take longer than one post, because certain claims would have to be established as facts, one being the veracity of 1 John 5:19, which supports Revelation 12:9, the account at Luke 4:5,6, Jesus’ statement @ John 12:31, et.al.

But I noticed that you didn’t answer my questions: Since you are a theist, what part in your view did God play in the existence of our Universe, and exactly how does that agree with science?

Take care, my cousin.
Just one question unrelated to this, why does the fact that there is no scientific evidence for the flood myth make you sad? And you know that is not the fault of scientists. It is the fault of flood believers that refuse to follow the scientific method. They probably wouldn't find any if they followed it, since the evidence is quite clearly against that story.

But the fact that there was no flood should make you happy. It means that the God of the Bible didn't do the most wicked act in the history of humanity.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
P.S. As an addendum, you say you believe in God but offer no evidence for your belief so far, and one of the reasons you say you believe in God is that the ToE does not say there is no God.
Why are you being so obsessive about this?

I'm not even a theist and even I realize that marrying evolution with god-belief would be as easy as saying "evolution is the mechanism god used to create humans".

And let's face it, that sounds a hell of a lot more reasonable then the equivalent of god "speaking" things into existence - which has quite an "abracadabra"-feel to it.
And also, off course, it doesn't require a denial of the evidence of reality.

Be a bit reasonable.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The answers I’ve accepted & promote, fit far better into the grand scheme of everything, than those you have advanced.

"god did it" fits "everything" meaning it really fits nothing. It has zero explanatory power.

For example, when posters like @George-ananda , @Tinkerpeach , and others present their evidence & experiences with unseen intelligent entities, you’re just like other skeptics on here. You have no explanation and so prefer to claim they’re “mistaken,” rather than examine the rational presentations of their evidence.
I don't require explanations or rebuttals to point out special pleading, arguments from ignorance or bare assertions.

If you think I “make stuff up”, prove it.

No. It's upto you to show that you can support your claims with actual verifiable evidence. If you can't, then the conclusion is that you're making up stuff. Don't ask me to do your homework.

Actually, my claims & beliefs do fit the facts. (Including the unexplained phenomena.)

That makes no sense. Unexplained phenomena are unexplained. To say your claims explain things that are unexplained is like talking about a married bachelor.

Both of us have the same facts / evidence. Our interpretations of the facts is where we differ.

No.

I think I’m quite clear: that no extant species, or population thereof, can evolve to the point of forming a new Family taxon; certainly not a new Order, much less a new Class or Phylum.

What do you mean by that?

New species, even new Genera, yes. But they’ll still be classified within that Family. (Or Order… that classification system is always in flux.)

If species would evolved to a point where they would no longer belong to the same famil / order / phylum, then evolution would be disproven. :shrug:
In evolution, nothing can outgrow its ancestry...


Alright.

1) The evolution of the genetic code which builds proteins that then are arranged to form the bacterial flagellum, or any of hundreds of other molecular machinery in the cell.


2) The cell itself, and the membrane encasing it.


Note that the evolution of the cell took place some 3.5 billion years ago. So naturally it will be quite hard to unravel how it occured.
But to claim that it could not have occured is quite a claim, which you will have to demonstrate.
If all you got is pointing out that we don't know exactly how it happened, then you are simply making a huge argument from ignorance right out the gates.

Etc., etc.

"etc"?
You can't say "etc" when both examples you gave were both demonstrably wrong and / or fallacious.


Yes.
It's demonstrated to being nothing but an argument from ignorance.
Nutshell: "I don't know how this can be reduced, therefor it can't"

I know you’d like to think so, but no evolutionary mechanisms — even under lab-controlled conditions — have been observed to produce irreducibly-complex systems.

False.

The citrate metabolic pathway in e. coli is such a mechanism.
It required 2 independent mutations. Remove 1 and citrate metabolic pathway no longer works.
It's not rocket science.

Then there's also the KNOWN mechanism of "repurposing" of parts, where parts take on new functions as evolution goes on.
Building "IC" structures through gradual evolution really isn't hard.

(And the humorous example of turning a mousetrap into a tie-clasp, was no refutation.)
It actually was as an analogy, since it illustrated perfectly how repurposing of parts / function can build so-called IC structures quite easily.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I’m certain who God is. (

How is that possible? Did you meet and talk with him? Yes, one can read scriptures, but how can one tell which scriptures are true and which aren't.

Now, as to proving which is truth, Christianity or Hinduism:
It’s almost like comparing apples to oranges, and claiming which is the better fruit.

That's not answering my question.

But I noticed that you didn’t answer my questions: Since you are a theist, what part in your view did God play in the existence of our Universe, and exactly how does that agree with science?

I believe I linked you to Spinoza's concept, which I tentatively agree with but cannot prove is correct.

To me, it's like asking if we live in a multiverse and not just our universe. How could we possibly know for sure what the answer is? If one says the Bible is completely true, then how could the prove that is but the Bhagavad Gita supposedly is not?
However, like with Spinoza's belief, I definitely believe that Jesus showed us the way with how we should love and act out of his and our love.

Take care, my cousin.

Much the same to you, my friend.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'll try this one more time....(maybe). Rejecting God's word which is what defines, who he is, who we are and why we need a Savior is Rejecting God. If you have time, read the whole chapter, just the 1st chapter of Romans, and you see there is quite a bit more than just saying God exists......When one truly comes to that, it is literally just the first step to believing , as defined by God,.......not me, not you, not anyone else......but God!
Me personally, I had to come to the conclusion after many years of being lost that there IS a God. Who cares. While not often easy, the good shepherd helps the sheep not to wander. One of my favorite songs is "Amazing Grace." God saved a wretch like me.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How is that possible? Did you meet and talk with him? Yes, one can read scriptures, but how can one tell which scriptures are true and which aren't.
t's not answering my question.
I believe I linked you to Spinoza's concept, which I tentatively agree with but cannot prove is correct.

To me, it's like asking if we live in a multiverse and not just our universe. How could we possibly know for sure what the answer is? If one says the Bible is completely true, then how could the prove that is but the Bhagavad Gita supposedly is not?
However, like with Spinoza's belief, I definitely believe that Jesus showed us the way with how we should love and act out of his and our love.
Much the same to you, my friend.
Of course many don't believe. But Moses spoke to God. And God spoke to him. What is also astounding is the biblical account of Moses, yet the very people who were saved from Egyptian bondage by means of Moses rebelled against him. Of course there will be those who say, yeah well, Moses never existed, the entire account of being in the wilderness never happened, etc. yet for some reason some of those go to their houses of worship and may even pray to who? Spinoza's God? By the way I wonder if Spinoza ever prayed...
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Of course many don't believe. But Moses spoke to God. And God spoke to him. What is also astounding is the biblical account of Moses, yet the very people who were saved from Egyptian bondage by means of Moses rebelled against him. Of course there will be those who say, yeah well, Moses never existed, the entire account of being in the wilderness never happened, etc. yet for some reason some of those go to their houses of worship and may even pray to who? Spinoza's God? By the way I wonder if Spinoza ever prayed...
Of course Moses was probably fictional too. Is denial all that you have for that?
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Me personally, I had to come to the conclusion after many years of being lost that there IS a God.
Good for you - no doubt such came from deep thinking about the issue.
Who cares.
I suspect you do, and hence why you seem to have grasped onto what your mind understands and avoided that which such might not.

While not often easy, the good shepherd helps the sheep not to wander. One of my favorite songs is "Amazing Grace." God saved a wretch like me.
Well, sheer thinking has saved many of us perhaps more - and for which we are extremely grateful - to our genes and much else.

But you still might be a wretch - as to not being so honest with your thinking. o_O
 
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