What convinced you that Evolution is the truth?

[Saved by grace 2]

I've been reading a little about Spinoza. Are you at all familiar with his history?

No SIr I never heard of him

 

[YoursTrue]

No SIr I never heard of him

Ok no problem. But it's interesting also in reference to the time he was living in. Some centuries ago. You can get a brief summary on Wikipedia. Spinoza.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How is that possible? Did you meet and talk with him? Yes, one can read scriptures, but how can one tell which scriptures are true and which aren't.

Hope you are well, metis.

I’m reminded of something Jesus said to the Pharisees, that they did not “know….the power of God.”

The same God who created life, along with the rest of this magnificent & organized universe, is certainly capable of keeping His words intact throughout the centuries, as noted scholar and former Director of the British Museum Sir Frederic G. Kenyon stated:

“The interval … between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be, in fact, negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.”

Same can be said for the Hebrew Scriptures — negligible differences (based on the thousands of centuries -old manuscripts uncovered).

Through my own studies with guidance from Jehovah’s Witnesses, I’ve found the veracity of it, and the harmony within it, to be startling. In spite of the many attacks it has endured.

And its prophetic accuracy & fulfillment, especially for these Last Days, is amazing!
For instance, regarding the “time of the end” (Matthew 24 & Luke 21), Jesus described certain extreme events, yet at 2 Peter 3:3,4, Peter wrote something that seems contradictory …. But it fits perfectly with what we observe today!
How? Because, for over a century now - since 1914 - mankind has been living in them, ie., the Last Days. These bad conditions seem normal to many, it’s all they’ve ever known. So quite a few (the scoffers) say, “It’s always been like this!” (True to prophecy.)
No, It hasn’t always been like this.
1914 has been recognized by authorities, ie., proven, to be a turning point in human history.

That's not answering my question.

Yes, I basically agreed that I didn’t; I said comparing Christianity to Hinduism is like apples to oranges.

But there is an interesting difference between what the Bible reveals, and what all other religious documents of the world’s major religions state…

While religious books tell their readers what a god may require of them, IOW, what they can do to please their god, only the Bible enlightens its readers as to what sacrifices its Author has given for our benefit: to aid us in living happily now, and to provide a happy & fulfilling life in the future. (Jeremiah 29:11) Because as Jehovah knew all along, we humans can’t govern ourselves. It’s becoming more & more evident. We are “ruining the Earth.” - Revelation 11:18; Jeremiah 10:23.


Take care.

 

[YoursTrue]

This Perfect Love,................. I have been a believer for many years and still fall miserably short of truly showing this Supernatural Love! And love is what we were created for, to first love God, with the Love that he offers and gives us thru Christ Jesus, and then to give it away to others.

I know God is many amazing awesome powerful things! He is Holy, Righteous, All Powerful, All knowing, He upholds all things by the word of his Power, He is all that is True in the universe for he is the author of all living things, and yet the Apostle John's Bold proclamation defining who he is says "GOD IS LOVE!"

And God didn't just say he loves us, but he demonstrated his Love for us that even when we are at our worst, our farthest away from his Ways, his truth, his likeness, Christ Died for US. I don't fully understand the immense power of this love, but I, with my whole being desire to be so much like him! In every way, to die to self, and live for Christ Jesus. to have Christ live in me and thru me is the greatest hope!

And another matter I fail to understand is why anyone would choose not to want to KNOW Him, to follow and seek after a God that would offer such a great Love. Who's only will for us now is that all would Believe and turn back to him, for forgiveness of sins, which is absolutely necessary for reconciliation back to our creator, and then, provide for us a new start, a redo, and full restoration from what was lost thru our first parents.
It truly is incomprehensible for me to understand that!

Let's put it this way, and yes I agree it can be difficult for many to trust God's love which includes forgiveness of sins. It is for me also. Some things we won't get over until the "new heavens and new earth". Revelation 21:1-5. When Jesus was on trial for his life with the Sanhedrin, his beloved disciples left him. Peter even lied. Did Jesus turn his back on them? I'll let you answer that because I think you know the answer.

 

[metis]

Hope you are well, metis.

It is, and I hope also with you.

“The interval … between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be, in fact, negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.”

That's an oversimplification because we cannot compare those dates with other documentation.

Yes, I basically agreed that I didn’t; I said comparing Christianity to Hinduism is like apples to oranges.

It really isn't because both are based on faith whereas most of what's covered cannot be verified, such as Moses parting the Reed Sea. That's why people come here to RF and argue but no one in reality can prove their religion to be right and the others to be wrong.

My main interest is in the main teachings, whereas what we may learn may be able to help us in day-to-day life.

Take care.

You too. Sorry to be so brief but I have to leave shortly.

 

[YoursTrue]

@metis -- I am remembering your post about differences in census, if I remember correctly. So which census are you talking about, the ones leading up to Jesus? I want to look up some information about that. Not sure which thread it was posted on, forgive me. Thanks.

 

[Saved by grace 2]

Let's put it this way, and yes I agree it can be difficult for many to trust God's love which includes forgiveness of sins. It is for me also. Some things we won't get over until the "new heavens and new earth". Revelation 21:1-5. When Jesus was on trial for his life with the Sanhedrin, his beloved disciples left him. Peter even lied. Did Jesus turn his back on them? I'll let you answer that because I think you know the answer.

And yes we know he didn't turn away from any of them, Forgiveness was and is available to anyone who turns back to the Lord for Godly sorrow Leads to Repentance, and we see that in Peter.
Here again is another demonstration of a Divine (Perfect) Love that goes beyond our capacity to do so without having received this Love which is freely offered thru Christ Jesus and the sacrifice given for the sins of the world. Only then, will this love be found in us, and thru us, by the Power of the Holy Spirit. For This is scripture as you know.

Romans 5:5 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.​

Adding this scripture to the post and believing by Faith, and meditating on this Awesome promise brings overwhelming joy, peace and this Supernatural Love promised into my heart!
But also the terrible reality that simply knowing this scripture in my mind, and while believing in my heart! Still the fact remains that I fall short too often. Bringing shame to My Lord, and not the Honor due his Name.
I know we are being sanctified each and every day as we Trust in our Lord, as we seek him in his Word and allow these powerful truths to take root in us. For we are created to bear fruit and manifest the New Nature born within us, as we are predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ Jesus, such that would be impossible to do in our own strength.

But as was mentioned in Hockeycowboy's post, Christendom has much blood on it's hands. But sadly it is true, that most of all those outside the Church choose to see or care to remember only the negative parts. All we can and WILL do is repent and plead with the Lord that we would stop making excuses for our own ungodly deeds, and Love as he commands,........no matter the costs!

One last thing that I would like to point out regarding Jesus not forsaking those who forsook him. It was prophesied that Judas would betray Jesus, Jesus clearly knew who Judas was and what he would do even before Judas did, and Yet Jesus loved him and brought him into an intimate close relationship, as all the other Apostles. This again shows the Divine Love of our Creator beyond human capacity. But I am convinced that Judas demise was all his own, meaning, Had Judas turned back to the Lord as Peter did, he would have been Restored as Peter most graciously was, instead of ending his own life.
FOR As the Scriptures say in:

II Corinthians 7:10. ​

For [godly] sorrow that is in accord with the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; (Example Peter)​

But worldly sorrow [the hopeless sorrow of those who do not believe] produces death! Example Judas)​

​

Sorry for the Long Post.........Love you in the Lord!​

 

[Kfox]

Of course this question is addressed both to theists and to atheists. Both to those who believe in evolution and those who believe it's untrue.
Explain why you, through your intelligence, reason and mind developped the awareness and the conviction that Evolution is the historical truth.

If you are a theist, please explain the theological implications, as well.

I will underline that we are not talking about Intelligence Design, here: we are talking about Darwinian evolution based upon the Darwinian principles like natural selection, etc..etc...
Thank you for participating-

I think the fact that modern medicine, agriculture, many of the modern technologies associated with biology is based on Evolution being true. If Evolution were fiction, those things wouldn't work. I find that a pretty convincing argument for evolution.

 

[metis]

@metis -- I am remembering your post about differences in census, if I remember correctly. So which census are you talking about, the ones leading up to Jesus? I want to look up some information about that. Not sure which thread it was posted on, forgive me. Thanks.

That which are found in Numbers and Deuteronomy if my memory is correct.

 

[YoursTrue]

That which are found in Numbers and Deuteronomy if my memory is correct.

Oh, ok, thanks for answering because I was wondering if you meant the lines leading to Jesus at his birth. OK, when I have time I'll look more up about census.

 

[YoursTrue]

And yes we know he didn't turn away from any of them, Forgiveness was and is available to anyone who turns back to the Lord for Godly sorrow Leads to Repentance, and we see that in Peter.
Here again is another demonstration of a Divine (Perfect) Love that goes beyond our capacity to do so without having received this Love which is freely offered thru Christ Jesus and the sacrifice given for the sins of the world. Only then, will this love be found in us, and thru us, by the Power of the Holy Spirit. For This is scripture as you know.

Romans 5:5 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.​

Adding this scripture to the post and believing by Faith, and meditating on this Awesome promise brings overwhelming joy, peace and this Supernatural Love promised into my heart!
But also the terrible reality that simply knowing this scripture in my mind, and while believing in my heart! Still the fact remains that I fall short too often. Bringing shame to My Lord, and not the Honor due his Name.
I know we are being sanctified each and every day as we Trust in our Lord, as we seek him in his Word and allow these powerful truths to take root in us. For we are created to bear fruit and manifest the New Nature born within us, as we are predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ Jesus, such that would be impossible to do in our own strength.

But as was mentioned in Hockeycowboy's post, Christendom has much blood on it's hands. But sadly it is true, that most of all those outside the Church choose to see or care to remember only the negative parts. All we can and WILL do is repent and plead with the Lord that we would stop making excuses for our own ungodly deeds, and Love as he commands,........no matter the costs!

One last thing that I would like to point out regarding Jesus not forsaking those who forsook him. It was prophesied that Judas would betray Jesus, Jesus clearly knew who Judas was and what he would do even before Judas did, and Yet Jesus loved him and brought him into an intimate close relationship, as all the other Apostles. This again shows the Divine Love of our Creator beyond human capacity. But I am convinced that Judas demise was all his own, meaning, Had Judas turned back to the Lord as Peter did, he would have been Restored as Peter most graciously was, instead of ending his own life.
FOR As the Scriptures say in:

II Corinthians 7:10. ​

For [godly] sorrow that is in accord with the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; (Example Peter)​

But worldly sorrow [the hopeless sorrow of those who do not believe] produces death! Example Judas)​

​

Sorry for the Long Post.........Love you in the Lord!​

Very sweet. You bring up some interesting points especially about Judas. I will pray over this.

 

[YoursTrue]

And yes we know he didn't turn away from any of them, Forgiveness was and is available to anyone who turns back to the Lord for Godly sorrow Leads to Repentance, and we see that in Peter.
Here again is another demonstration of a Divine (Perfect) Love that goes beyond our capacity to do so without having received this Love which is freely offered thru Christ Jesus and the sacrifice given for the sins of the world. Only then, will this love be found in us, and thru us, by the Power of the Holy Spirit. For This is scripture as you know.

Romans 5:5 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.​

Adding this scripture to the post and believing by Faith, and meditating on this Awesome promise brings overwhelming joy, peace and this Supernatural Love promised into my heart!
But also the terrible reality that simply knowing this scripture in my mind, and while believing in my heart! Still the fact remains that I fall short too often. Bringing shame to My Lord, and not the Honor due his Name.
I know we are being sanctified each and every day as we Trust in our Lord, as we seek him in his Word and allow these powerful truths to take root in us. For we are created to bear fruit and manifest the New Nature born within us, as we are predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ Jesus, such that would be impossible to do in our own strength.

But as was mentioned in Hockeycowboy's post, Christendom has much blood on it's hands. But sadly it is true, that most of all those outside the Church choose to see or care to remember only the negative parts. All we can and WILL do is repent and plead with the Lord that we would stop making excuses for our own ungodly deeds, and Love as he commands,........no matter the costs!

One last thing that I would like to point out regarding Jesus not forsaking those who forsook him. It was prophesied that Judas would betray Jesus, Jesus clearly knew who Judas was and what he would do even before Judas did, and Yet Jesus loved him and brought him into an intimate close relationship, as all the other Apostles. This again shows the Divine Love of our Creator beyond human capacity. But I am convinced that Judas demise was all his own, meaning, Had Judas turned back to the Lord as Peter did, he would have been Restored as Peter most graciously was, instead of ending his own life.
FOR As the Scriptures say in:

II Corinthians 7:10. ​

For [godly] sorrow that is in accord with the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; (Example Peter)​

But worldly sorrow [the hopeless sorrow of those who do not believe] produces death! Example Judas)​

​

Sorry for the Long Post.........Love you in the Lord!​

Hi again. Here is something that is encouraging --
"No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
(Romans 8)

 

[Saved by grace 2]

neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Yes Sir, And I would like to emphasize the importance of understanding, receiving and KNOWING this Intimate, personal, Powerful Love is offered and found Only in the Son (Jesus Christ)
What is your understanding of the word "Know". as is used many times in the scriptures that I believe most of us miss the biblical meaning.

Example: John 8:31-32
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
and you will KNOW the truth, and the truth will set you free

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes Sir, And I would like to emphasize the importance of understanding, receiving and KNOWING this Intimate, personal, Powerful Love is offered and found Only in the Son (Jesus Christ)
What is your understanding of the word "Know". as is used many times in the scriptures that I believe most of us miss the biblical meaning.

Example: John 8:31-32
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
and you will KNOW the truth, and the truth will set you free

Yes. It can be a difficult one to explain fully. Because someone told me today in real life (not on the net) that she went to a Pentecostal meeting and heard a voice talking to her and she lay flat on the floor and she heard voices. But it's a long story there.
Now about know. So that's an interesting question. I do agree that to KNOW the truth is very, very important, and that we must abide in and that God will set us free. In that sense, I could say I 'know' someone but perhaps only in passing. Jesus goes on to explain more about this. What do you think?

 

[Saved by grace 2]

So that's an interesting question. I do agree that to KNOW the truth is very, very important, and that we must abide in and that God will set us free.

Yes it is everything in matters of God's Truth, ...I believe!
Jesus said something else about "Knowing" but this scripture is a very terrifying warning, that we must ask ourselves and our Lord, Do I truly Know you Lord?
You said on an earlier post, and I was impressed what you said,........"I will pray over this one". We all really need to pray over this one!
Let's hear what our Lord says:

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

What can our Lord mean here, you think?

 

[leroy]

Of course this question is addressed both to theists and to atheists. Both to those who believe in evolution and those who believe it's untrue.
Explain why you, through your intelligence, reason and mind developped the awareness and the conviction that Evolution is the historical truth.

If you are a theist, please explain the theological implications, as well.

I will underline that we are not talking about Intelligence Design, here: we are talking about Darwinian evolution based upon the Darwinian principles like natural selection, etc..etc...
Thank you for participating-

I accept that we all share a common ancestor mainly because that is the most elegant and simple explanation for a bunch of things….. (the best example in my opinion, analogous genetic mistakes in the same place among different species)

As an analogy, if you have 2 copies of the new testament and both have the exact same spelling mistakes in the same words and sentences, then it is obvious that ether one copy came from the other, or that the both share a common source it would be unlikely that 2 independnet scribes made the exact same mistake e in the same word………….we have an analogous thing with biology and DNA, if humans and chimps have the same broken gene in the same location then common ancestry would be the best explanation

----

I reject the idea that complex organs and systems evolved from simpler organs as a result of random variation and natural selection, because there seem to be insuperable obstacles,

some of these obstacles are.

1 discordances in the tree of life

2 genetic entropy (random mutations on average deteriorate the genome)

3 ireducuble complexity (many things have to evolve at the same time in order to get a benefit)

4 Haldane's dilemma (there is not enough time to account for the differences between say humans and chimps)

If you are a theist, please explain the theological implications, as well.

--

As a theist (Christian) I see no important implications, whether if evolution is true or not, doesn’t refute nor supports the claim that Jesus resurrected ………….. so any theological implication would be secondary in my opinion

 

[metis]

2 genetic entropy (random mutations on average deteriorate the genome)

It's the other way around as in-breeding can all too often lead to serious genetic defects.

3 ireducuble complexity (many things have to evolve at the same time in order to get a benefit)

There is no such thing as "irreducible complexity" until one gets to the quantum level.

4 Haldane's dilemma (there is not enough time to account for the differences between say humans and chimps)

In millions of years, lots can happen.

 

[leroy]

It's the other way around as in-breeding can all too often lead to serious genetic defects.



There is no such thing as "irreducible complexity" until one gets to the quantum level.



In millions of years, lots can happen.

Well, what can I say; I made my best effort in studying these topics objectively, and concluded that these are likely insuperable obstacles for the specific model of random variation + natural selection…. if you reached at different conclusions……….good for you

But there is an easy solution…………. Maybe variation is not always random, maybe non random variation plays an important role……… you don’t even need to invoke ID, there are many known nonrandom mechanisms, we only need to assume that some of these mechanisms played a relevant role…….

 

[metis]

Well, what can I say; I made my best effort in studying these topics objectively, and concluded that these are likely insuperable obstacles for the specific model of random variation + natural selection…. if you reached at different conclusions……….good for yo

I had to study genetics when working on my graduate anthropology degree, however that certainly doesn't make me as some sort of expert on it.

 

[Pogo]

1 discordances in the tree of life

Evidence that any are significant?
No-one else has ever presented any, can you be the first?

2 genetic entropy (random mutations on average deteriorate the genome)

No such thing, it was just a bad hypothesis that has long since been refuted.

Gen_Entropy

Response to John Sanford’s Defense of Genetic Entropy, March 2013 BACKGROUND Back in 2008-2009, a friend gave me a copy of John Sanford’s book, Genetic Entropy. He told me that it thoroughly dispro…

letterstocreationists.wordpress.com

3 ireducuble complexity (many things have to evolve at the same time in order to get a benefit)

Even Michael Behe disproved this one.

Simulating evolution by gene duplication of protein features that require multiple amino acid residue​

4 Haldane's dilemma (there is not enough time to account for the differences between say humans and chimps)

Although neutral evolution remains the consensus theory among modern biologists,[3] and thus Kimura's resolution of Haldane's dilemma is widely regarded as correct, some biologists argue that adaptive evolution explains a large fraction of substitutions in protein coding sequence,[4] and they propose alternative solutions to Haldane's dilemma.


We have seen it all before, what are you going to do tonight?