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Vastness of Space Suggests There Is No Almighty Creator

Skwim

Veteran Member
The vastness of space would more suggest that god is bigger than the us.
What is the "us"?

It isn't overkill if the objective was a universe with life in it, as opposed to humans being the objective.
But we have no indication this is what he wanted, and from looking at just our own solar system, in which only one of its planets has life, there's a lot of waste. What we do know, from the Christian perspective anyway, is that we humans are god's masterpiece.

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"
And if that was his aim, to create a masterpiece animal, then why all the other trillions upon trillions of other planets in the universe? One would think a deity as great as god is said to be would get it right the first time and have no need for the others. That Earth and its solar system would suffice.

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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
You said you don't need this much space...Something that exists greater than you and more ancient does not need your approval or care what you need right now regarding the universe. I want God to heal me from the pain from the loss of my parents. God is beyond human emotion but I am sure understands. Just like expanding the universe. We can have zillions of galaxies....it only means we not the only life forms. God is surely the lord of all the worlds.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
OK. You make a very good point and I want to talk about this. The Universe will vary all over the place. However there will always be places where life can be found. This is true because life is the only infinite thing in the Universe. We know from our imagination that the capacity to think of things does not have to hit a wall. Statistically speaking even with the Universe changing in its properties if you look large enough there will still be areas where life is supported and furthermore places that can think as deep as you can imagine. That is because no matter how many properties there are in the Universe and how much they vary this is countable and we can always come up with life-sustaining processes again if we travel far enough. We may already be in a collision course for being able to think much harder ourselves.

To be clear, I am not arguing that the universe is devoid of life, save this one planet. I'm arguing that we simply do not know the nature of that life. I would wager that there is some kind of life, someplace else. But that is as far as we can carry it. There is no way we can know if there is a higher life form out there (higher intelligence, I mean). You can talk about statistics all you want, but it really is speculation based upon very little knowledge of what is actually out there. All statistics I have seen on this start with unfalsifiable assumptions based upon extremely limited knowledge.
As time goes on, and our tools of exploration improve, we may amass enough information to make a reasonable assumption. I just don't feel we are at that point.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
What is the "us"?


But we have no indication this is what he wanted, and from looking at just our own solar system, in which only one of its planets has life, there's a lot of waste. What we do know, from the Christian perspective anyway, is that we humans are god's masterpiece.

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"

.
We do have indication because the earth was already life ready, the universe was life ready. So ready in fact that the earth just did its circles around the sun and life just popped up without any needed guidance. Besides we are talking a very old solar system, there being no life on Mars doesn't mean there was never life on Mars.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
We do have indication because the earth was already life ready, the universe was life ready. So ready in fact that the earth just did its circles around the sun and life just popped up without any needed guidance. Besides we are talking a very old solar system, there being no life on Mars doesn't mean there was never life on Mars.



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Bird123

Well-Known Member
"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

.



Ego gets in the way of so much learning and discovery. Mankind thinks they are God's only child. All they see is themselves, yet this world teems with God's children all around not mankind.

Made in God's image??? Since we are all Spiritual beings in our true nature, our likeness to God has nothing to do with our physical bodies. With this in mind, the diversity of physical bodies in a universe so large must be virtually limitless.

One could choose to see the vastness of space, then assume there is no God, however this assumption is solely based on what the viewer really wants to be true along with a surface view of the surroundings. Perhaps, a deeper look might reveal a different picture.

First, one must assume great intelligence for any being capable of creating our universe. Next, in this time-based causal universe, this being's action can be seen. If one can figure out everything about the actions of an intelligent being, one becomes more intelligent themselves in the process. Hang around the smart people and that rubs off on you. That's one of the reasons I made so many friends with the smartest people in school.

The reason for the vastness of space: What would happen if mankind could reach another planet with life on it. I'm not talking about microbial life but somewhat like us. Can anybody else see the mess it would create? At mankind's current level, mankind is nowhere near ready. God created the vastness of space so that when one acquired the knowledge to be able to travel such distances, one would have acquired enough wisdom not to screw up the primitive planet encountered. The answer is so simple. It stares us all in the face.

What else stares us in the face? One might be very very surprised.

On the other hand, you are right about beliefs and religious books. Since so much of them do not add up, one can never base reality on them. Then again, perhaps they are a reflection of people trying to express their spirituality. Even though one might not have all the facts, who one is can be expressed through one's choices and actions. This view beyond the surface stares us all in the face as well.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You see the earth didn't need any help to "create" life, how would that work? It would work by having an earth ready for life from inception.
But at the inception of Earth the planet was extremely hostile to life. It wasn't until some 1.4 billion years later that life was able to arise.

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idav

Being
Premium Member
But at the inception of Earth the planet was extremely hostile to life. It wasn't until some 1.4 billion years later that life was able to arise.

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Hostile to human life sure. There are life forms that can survive lava planets and/or sub freezing space. Ready for life could simply mean having steady source of energy, like a sun.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
To be clear, I am not arguing that the universe is devoid of life, save this one planet. I'm arguing that we simply do not know the nature of that life. I would wager that there is some kind of life, someplace else. But that is as far as we can carry it. There is no way we can know if there is a higher life form out there (higher intelligence, I mean). You can talk about statistics all you want, but it really is speculation based upon very little knowledge of what is actually out there. All statistics I have seen on this start with unfalsifiable assumptions based upon extremely limited knowledge.
As time goes on, and our tools of exploration improve, we may amass enough information to make a reasonable assumption. I just don't feel we are at that point.
OK. That is fine. I simply think that if there is life from place to place it "probably" is a "higher power" somewhere, but without "probability" I cannot show that.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
People keep saying that. I guess it's so much power now it just got to the point where it looks God isn't even there.

I'm starting to think God blew himself up to smithereens with so much power.

I guess that's what you get when you play with explosives.

Maybe you need to meditate a little more.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
99.9999999% of human beings do not independently observe/see this universe.

Only the blind ones can't observe the universe. It's all around us.

I highly doubt that the special and priveledged class in power can see as far as claimed.

Astronomers, however, can and have.

perhaps it is that large and the cosmos is the brain/mind of "God." How would you know?

Good point. It might also be the spleen or pancreas of "God." How would you know?

perhaps every living thing has and is creating their own galaxy.

Agreed. I just finished creating a galaxy.

the alleged findings of the privileged small class in power do not prove or disprove "God."

No need. Without compelling evidence of such an entity, we take the default position.

while I respect freedom to have your needy expectations of beliefs... others are free to have beliefs of equal value, ranging in degree of expectations and neediness.

Sure, they're free to have differing beliefs, but being different doesn't make such beliefs of equal value.

I'd call the god belief the needy one. The atheist doesn't need that belief.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe in God, but an apophatic God of the Baha'i Faith

Apophatic? Oh, good. Time for the biblical "apo" vocabulary quiz. Have fun.

Match the following:

[1] apostasy
[2] apocryphal
[3] apotheosis
[4] apologetics
[5] apostolic
[6] apocalypse
[7] apophatic

(a) theological defense
(b) desertion of a post or of a religion
(c) elevation to god status
(d) the violent end of the world
(e) related to a missionary or disciple
(f) of doubtful authenticity
(g) of or relating to the belief that God can be known to humans only in terms of what He is not (such as `God is unknowable').

[1] apostasy - (b) desertion of a post or of a religion
[2] apocryphal - (f) of doubtful authenticity (scripture)
[3] apotheosis - (c) elevation to god status
[4] apologetics - (a) theological defense
[5] apostolic - (e) related to a missionary or disciple
[6] apocalypse - (d) the violent end of the world
[7] apophatic - (g) of or relating to the belief that God can be known to humans only in terms of what He is not (such as `God is unknowable').
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Apophatic? Oh, good. Time for the biblical "apo" vocabulary quiz. Have fun.

Match the following:

[1] apostasy
[2] apocryphal
[3] apotheosis
[4] apologetics
[5] apostolic
[6] apocalypse
[7] apophatic

(a) theological defense
(b) desertion of a post or of a religion
(c) elevation to god status
(d) the violent end of the world
(e) related to a missionary or disciple
(f) of doubtful authenticity
(g) of or relating to the belief that God can be known to humans only in terms of what He is not (such as `God is unknowable').

[1] apostasy - (b) desertion of a post or of a religion
[2] apocryphal - (f) of doubtful authenticity (scripture)
[3] apotheosis - (c) elevation to god status
[4] apologetics - (a) theological defense
[5] apostolic - (e) related to a missionary or disciple
[6] apocalypse - (d) the violent end of the world
[7] apophatic - (g) of or relating to the belief that God can be known to humans only in terms of what He is not (such as `God is unknowable').

OK. So what?!?!?!?

The Christian God is Cataphatic with apophatic attributes.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The vastness of space would more suggest that god is bigger than the us. It isn't overkill if the objective was a universe with life in it, as opposed to humans being the objective.
That, as has been pointed out, might work for deism or polytheism, but it would mean that any idea of a personal god is the idea of a being inefficient well past the point of awe.
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
I'm sorry to be a pest, but I really don't understand who you're referring to here. Are you taking about prophets, Mt. Everest climbers, gurus, mars colonists, proctologists . . . ?

At least you acknowledge your intent as being pesty :).

From the thread: "Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe."

Who is seeing? Do you? Do I? Does 99.9999999% of people? What is the observable universe? How far and faint can you and I see with the unaided eye and with the best telescope we can personally have?
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
Only the blind ones can't observe the universe. It's all around us.



Astronomers, however, can and have.



Good point. It might also be the spleen or pancreas of "God." How would you know?



Agreed. I just finished creating a galaxy.



No need. Without compelling evidence of such an entity, we take the default position.



Sure, they're free to have differing beliefs, but being different doesn't make such beliefs of equal value.

I'd call the god belief the needy one. The atheist doesn't need that belief.

Only the blind, as in unaware to what can be made aware within one who came from such. If you have seen with your own literal independent eyes and your own telescope, you should share your observations.

A majority of astronomers also don't have the luxury and some even discovered that what is of short redshift interacting with what is alleged as far redshift.

I don't know. I'm okay with this.

I did too, I painted one and developed one using CPU software.

Well, then you treat and view others unjustly and of inequality, and not free.

A lot of people are needy. Even those having the never satisfied, over-need mentality of physical evidence for everything.
Everyone needs a source for life and their being.
 
These discussions will go on and on, around and around forever. Do you not understand everyone has their own world views,opinions, beliefs and faiths regardless of what anyone else thinks ? Do some of you really feel that egotistical, self-righteous need to negate other human's beliefs , views and experiences of this subjective dream of life ? Live your life as you want and accept other's rights to choose to live as they choose...as long as they're not trying to personally harm you. There's no other approach. If you want to engage in a productive discussion, engage with those who share your same personal views instead of arguing against someone else's belief system. It's their life to live ,experience, dream , believe or have faith in whatever they want. It's the one supreme gift each individual gets in this life, to live and believe whatever they want and no one can change that or take anything away from them. Wanting to do that is a futile, negative, non-productive, selfish attempt to just validate one's own views and reality. And if you are one of these people, then you need to examine yourself , not your neighbor.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I see the vastness of space as irrelevant to the question of deities' existence.
I disagree. The vastness of space may be irrelevant to "the deities' existence," but not to "the question" of that existence. Questions arise because we inevitably try to understand our situation, and always do so within the context of our beliefs and perceptions. Thus, I think @Skwim's question is a very valid one: if you hold a belief in the existence of a deity who is tremendously focussed on us, what would you expect the totality of our existence to look like? And if it looks very, very different from what you'd expect, should you not at least begin to ask questions?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I disagree. The vastness of space may be irrelevant to "the deities' existence," but not to "the question" of that existence. Questions arise because we inevitably try to understand our situation, and always do so within the context of our beliefs and perceptions. Thus, I think @Skwim's question is a very valid one: if you hold a belief in the existence of a deity who is tremendously focussed on us, what would you expect the totality of our existence to look like? And if it looks very, very different from what you'd expect, should you not at least begin to ask questions?
Limited space....infinite space....what's the difference
in creating useful premises regarding deities?
 
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