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Featured Vastness of Space Suggests There Is No Almighty Creator

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Nov 3, 2017.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    "Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

    Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

    To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

    These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

    If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

    Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

    To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

    Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

    As Everitt puts it:

    The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
    source
    So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

    Ephesians 2:10
    “For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
    anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
    us long ago"

    then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

    .

     
    #1 Skwim, Nov 3, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
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  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity holy roly poly
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    It is an argument against creationism not against Christianity.
     
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  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I'd say it is a (weak) argument against a personal God.
     
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  4. bobhikes

    bobhikes infinitologist
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    The number of transistors in a Core i7 (Quad) 731,000,000 Intel, How many cpu's are in today's computer's, how much more electronics, how much data and yet when something goes wrong don't we try to save it. Isn't the computer important to the average person. Haven't we created programs to help protect the data and keep the computer running efficiently. Scientists are saying we can do this with a computer but God can't do this with a universe. I guess if they believe that than they wouldn't believe in God.
     
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  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Libertarian Capitalist Atheist Baconist
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    I see the vastness of space as irrelevant to the question of deities' existence.
     
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  6. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    ....... The scientists don't have any firm ideas about the reason for the existence of our universe and beyond.

    The reason....... Let's call the Reason ..... God.

    Deism it is.
     
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  7. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    The Big Bang is an extremely firm idea, and because they have no reason to believe there's any such of a thing as "beyond the universe," they have no ideas about it.

    .
     
  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    ????????????????????

    .
     
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  9. bobhikes

    bobhikes infinitologist
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    Everything about this word is complex, if you count the atoms in a human their are far more than stars in the sky, Yet everything works it was made to work just like the complexities of a car. The universe is the shell but its the parts that make it work. It the bits and pieces that need to be kept running so that the universe keeps running. Perhaps Christianity and Jesus are just one of the programs god created to keep things running smoothly.

    I worry about the oil in my car. I worry about the tires of my car. I worry about the brakes, the battery, the spark plugs. Just because the car is large and made up of many parts, I still take care up and worry about the small details.
     
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  10. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    it wouldn't be a creator God in the traditional sense. but an intelligent creative natural force isn't ruled out in my eyes.

    my question is what lies beyond space?, space that is expanding, must have some kind of room to grow into.
    it must be infinite and of no end.

    do you think space is uniformally the same everywhere in the infinite?

    there must be other realities out there.
     
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  11. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    So you dismiss the theory of the multiverse including its potential testability. It is a controversial idea, to be sure, but some argue that it's testable to some degree: How Do You Test The Multiverse? With Bubbles
     
  12. Kuzcotopia

    Kuzcotopia If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.

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    I think this is called the Argument from Scale. I actually really like it.

    When I studied Chaucer in school, I learned that the church always assumed that the earth was the center of a very small universe consisting of a few planets, the sun, and the "firmament."

    To me, if you knew nothing about the way the universe works, and had
    bo modern scientific knowledge, this would be the exact prediction about how the universe works.

    An earth-centric universe, such as the medieval view, exactly
    fits the narrative of a god creating man and the world he inhabits. The fact that the religious expectation fails to match the actual reality of the world as we know it know is, I think, a pretty good argument.

    You just have to look at the history of what people used to believe.

    IMG_5898.JPG
     
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  13. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    They make a case for why Christianity the probably isn't true. But to a deist it's not really saying much. Really, we don't know how big things really get and if there is more than just this universe, meaning that ultimately we really can't even begin to adequately define a "creator" at this point. But for now, we don't even know how we got here. All we can really say is we're probably not that special, and maybe not even that unique, in the universe. But for all we honestly know this may be the only planet with life.
     
  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Off topic, but it's interesting that there are no devils becoming angels. It's quite the striking visual of the "no second chances" nature of god's rule.
     
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  15. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    Doesn't Christianity include creationism? Like in Genesis?
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    It is a good argument against the Biblical God of the Old and New Testament. It takes a selective reading and gerrymandering the text to make Biblical view of the nature of our physical existence remotely relevant to the world past the 12th-16th century.
     
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  17. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    One thing is certain: the vastness of space confirms for me that any omnimax deity that would have a *personal* relationship with me--even through his son, who became a human, allegedly--is far far beyond my limited ability to comprehend...

    since there is no way I could even in theory tell the difference between such a universal deity, and one that was not universally omnimax, but almost completely omnimax in only, say, one percent of the universe, or even one one-billionth of the universe, I really don't bother much with ideas or beliefs in such entities any more.
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    The majority of the Church Fathers, and the context of the New Testament supports a roughly literal Genesis, including the flood.
     
  19. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    Vastness of Space Suggests There Is No Almighty Creator

    This view strikes me as a very human-centric way of thinking about the universe. And also it sounds like we think we know what the correct size should be. And that we know all the purposes of it all. It sounds like a mouse determining how a human should have designed things. The mouse is clueless on that grand a scale.

    Consider me unimpressed by this argument.
     
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  20. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    It was taught for a long time (and sometimes today still) that everything was created for the benefit of humans.
     
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