Treatments of women

[TashaN]

I don't know if you notice the difference, but there is a huge difference between men and women circumcision.

For one, men's circumcision ONLY remove foreskin from the penis. It is not actually cutting the organ itself; just the skin.

The female's circumcision actually cutting and removing the actual genital organ, which is the clitoris.

Totally different. A skin is one thing, a genital is another. It (female genital circumcision) has absolutely nothing to do with preventing infection or disease; it is mutilation of women's perfectly healthy organs.

I agree with you.

It's archaic barbaric and oppressive practice. That it is still practice today among Muslims, showed another example of Islam treatments of women.

Are you blind, deaf, or ignorant? You didn't see my post above?

It's being practiced in only two Muslim countries, as far as i know, Egypt and Sudan, and even there, not all of them do it.

This act has nothing to do with Islam. It's a pure cultural act.

 

[Fatihah]

I don't know if you notice the difference, but there is a huge difference between men and women circumcision.

For one, men's circumcision ONLY remove foreskin from the penis. It is not actually cutting the organ itself; just the skin.

The female's circumcision actually cutting and removing the actual genital organ, which is the clitoris.

Totally different. A skin is one thing, a genital is another. It (female genital circumcision) has absolutely nothing to do with preventing infection or disease; it is mutilation of women's perfectly healthy organs.

Response: Female circumcision is not always done by removing genital organ.

Quote: gnostic
It's archaic barbaric and oppressive practice. That it is still practice today among Muslims, showed another example of Islam treatments of women.

Response: On the contrary, it's proof of the beauty in islam because nothing in the qur'an or sunnah condones female mutilation.

 

[gnostic]

Are you blind, deaf, or ignorant? You didn't see my post above?

It's being practiced in only two Muslim countries, as far as i know, Egypt and Sudan, and even there, not all of them do it.

This act has nothing to do with Islam. It's a pure cultural act.

But it is given in the hadith, is it not?

if the hadith is rejected, then why is even considered to be hadith?

 

[Fatihah]

But it is given in the hadith, is it not?

if the hadith is rejected, then why is even considered to be hadith?

Response: You see, a hadith is basically islamic news pertaining to islam. In other words, when something was heard or practiced, it was written down. If someone heard from somebody that somebody said somebody said something that Muhammad (pbuh) said, it was written down. As you can see, it's hearsay. People wrote down what they heard. So every hadith is not authentic. Even when the Imams wrote the hadiths down, they would say themselves that they are writing down what they hear. They don't know if it's true or not.

So the authentic had to be separated from the weak. Those that are authentic are the collection of hadiths found in Bukhari and Muslim. They are called hadiths because that os exactly what they are. But they are not authentic hadiths and therefore they are not apart of the sunnah.

 

[gnostic]

So the authentic had to be separated from the weak. Those that are authentic are the collection of hadiths found in Bukhari and Muslim. They are called hadiths because that os exactly what they are. But they are not authentic hadiths and therefore they are not apart of the sunnah.

Thank you, fatihah.

So not all hadiths are not authentic. And only those that are authentic, are sunnah.

I am satisfied with this explanation.

 

[Fatihah]

Thank you, fatihah.

So not all hadiths are not authentic. And only those that are authentic, are sunnah.

I am satisfied with this explanation.

Response: Afwan (you're welcome)

 

[linwood]

This act has nothing to do with Islam. It's a pure cultural act.

You do understand that the religion of any given society is a major force that shapes it culture.

Don`t you?

 

[TashaN]

You do understand that the religion of any given society is a major force that shapes it culture.

Don`t you?

I do, but what if this practice was being done way before a certain religion has emerged?

You got what i mean?

 

[gnostic]

I know that Islam is strong against adultery and deal with adulterers quite mercilessly, but women cop it far worse than men, because they are properties, because Allah willed it.

Allah even willed that Muslim men can actually get away with committing adultery. Men have even the rights to commit adultery, or cause or force married women to commit adultery.

 

[Peace]

I know that Islam is strong against adultery and deal with adulterers quite mercilessly, but women cop it far worse than men, because they are properties, because Allah willed it.

Allah even willed that Muslim men can actually get away with committing adultery. Men have even the rights to commit adultery, or cause or force married women to commit adultery.

gnostic -- frankly speaking when I read your posts about Islam I found them based on total ignorance about Islam with no back up at all.
I would advice you to read more about Islam from its authentic sources. You should differentiate between the Islamic religion and the culture of some of the Muslim countries.
For the adultery, both the man and the woman is punished and the same thing for the fornication.
For the case of rape only the rapist who is punished and not the victim. Only in some ignorant countries where they punish the victim as well and that for sure has nothing to do with Islam.

 

[gnostic]

For the adultery, both the man and the woman is punished and the same thing for the fornication.
For the case of rape only the rapist who is punished and not the victim. Only in some ignorant countries where they punish the victim as well and that for sure has nothing to do with Islam.

I supposed that's true, but in some circumstances, adultery and rapes are permitted.

In the 2nd part of verse 24, it encourage men not to commit adultery and fornication:

It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done).

But there's a loophole in regards to adultery (and possibly even rape). In the rule of war, this law against adultery and rape is thrown out the window on the very 1st line of this verse.

And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.

As a war captive, a woman is not protected by the Qur'an. Captive women have no rights, and the victor can do what he like with them, and what happened usually in war is that women get rape, regardless how young or old each woman is, or married or single.

This is why I said that Allah give men the right to do whatever they want to married women.

 

[Peace]

I supposed that's true, but in some circumstances, adultery and rapes are permitted.

In the 2nd part of verse 24, it encourage men not to commit adultery and fornication:



But there's a loophole in regards to adultery (and possibly even rape). In the rule of war, this law against adultery and rape is thrown out the window on the very 1st line of this verse.



As a war captive, a woman is not protected by the Qur'an. Captive women have no rights, and the victor can do what he like with them, and what happened usually in war is that women get rape, regardless how young or old each woman is, or married or single.

This is why I said that Allah give men the right to do whatever they want to married women.

These are the verses 4:24-26, please re-read them and tell me where the Muslim male is told to have an illegal relationship with captives.


24. Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allâh ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allâh is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

25. And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free, believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those (slaves) whom your right hands possess, and Allâh has full knowledge about your Faith; you are one from another. Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians, Auliy⒠or masters) and give them their Mahr according to what is reasonable; they (the above said captive and slave-girls) should be chaste, not committing illegal sex, nor taking boy-friends. And after they have been taken in wedlock, if they commit illegal sexual intercourse, their punishment is half that for free (unmarried) women.[1] This is for him among you who is afraid of being harmed in his religion or in his body; but it is better for you that you practice self-restraint, and Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

26. Allâh wishes to make clear (what is lawful and what is unlawful) to you, and to show you the ways of those before you, and accept your repentance, and Allâh is All-Knower, All-Wise.

 

[gnostic]

The Pickthall's translation (for verse 25) doesn't indicate that the captive or slave women:

And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you.

Either that, or I am not reading it correctly.

Is it "let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess"?

The question remain, what if the captives were "married" women? Are they return to their husbands? Or can the master married them (already married captives), because he owned them through victory in battle?

Because if her husband is not dead, the victor marrying the captive, would cause her to commit adultery, whether she like or not.

The 3rd last sentence indicate she would be punished, half of the penalty of the married free woman. Why punish her at all, when he is the one who possessed her?

This is still nonsense.

Let say, normally a free married woman was found guilty for adultery (this is a hypothetical example), and receive 50 lashes. According to verse 25, a captive married woman would receive half of that, hence 25 lashes. But a captive woman is not a controller of her own fate, she can't stop her master from marrying her, and forcing her to sin. This is rather unjust and harsh law, let alone an absurd one.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:gnostic]

The question remain, what if the captives were "married" women? Are they return to their husbands? Or can the master married them (already married captives), because he owned them through victory in battle?(End quote)

Response: They are not to return to their husbands. These women participated in battle against the muslims.

Quote: gnostic
Because if her husband is not dead, the victor marrying the captive, would cause her to commit adultery, whether she like or not.(End quote)

Response: It is not adultery because the marriage is agreed upon by both parties, thus annuling the previous marriage.

Quote: gnostic
The 3rd last sentence indicate she would be punished, half of the penalty of the married free woman. Why punish her at all, when he is the one who possessed her?(End quote)

Response: She is punished like any other person if she is guilty of lewdness.

Quote: gnostic
This is still nonsense.

Let say, normally a free married woman was found guilty for adultery (this is a hypothetical example), and receive 50 lashes. According to verse 25, a captive married woman would receive half of that, hence 25 lashes. But a captive woman is not a controller of her own fate, she can't stop her master from marrying her, and forcing her to sin. This is rather unjust and harsh law, let alone an absurd one.(End quote)

Response: It would be unjust of the qur'an said this, however that is not the case. There is no forced marriage.

 

[Snowber]

QURAN Chapter 4: AN-NISA (WOMEN) VERSE 34

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme.
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا

​

Quran Chapter 2: AL-BAQARA (THE COW) verse 228:

divorced women shall wait by themselves for three periods. it is unlawful for them, if they believe in allah and the last day, to hide what he has created in their wombs, in which case their husbands would have a better right to restore them should they desire reconciliation. and for them similar to what is due from them with kindness. but men have a degree above them(=women). allah is mighty and wise.
وَالْمُطَلَّقَاتُ يَتَرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنفُسِهِنَّ ثَلاَثَةَ قُرُوَءٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَهُنَّ أَن يَكْتُمْنَ مَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ فِي أَرْحَامِهِنَّ إِن كُنَّ يُؤْمِنَّ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَبُعُولَتُهُنَّ أَحَقُّ بِرَدِّهِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ إِنْ أَرَادُواْ إِصْلاَحًا وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ
​

HADITH: Al-Musanaf by Abu Bakr Ahmad Ibn 'Abd Allah Ibn Mousa Al-Kanadi who lived 557H., Vol. 1 Part 2, p. 263:

"'Omar [one of the Khalifs] was once talking when his wife interjected, so he said to her: 'You(=woman) are a toy, if you are needed we will call you.'"

​

just tree of the hundreds , if not thousand , anti woman verses of the islam.
THAT's the view of islam on woman!

Unfortunately this guy isn't around anymore but I'd like to comment anyway. I cannot comment on Hadith and Sunna because I personally do not take them as authorized religious sources, as for the Koranic verses mentioned above:

If someone reads the whole chapter they will see this is a chapter for the right of women, not the degradation of women. In fact in the verse about beating women, the order is very important.

How many "Muslim" men do we all know who have actually resorted to (and the order again is important) "admonishing them" THEN "forsaking them in bed" THEN "beating them"?

Probably not many if any at all. GOD is the best psychologist, evil humans will be evil regardless of which religion or lack of religion they claim.

The footnote here is a good example:

Do Not Beat Your Wife*

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women,** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

*4:34 God prohibits wife-beating by using the best psychological approach. For example, if I don't want you to shop at Market X, I will ask you to shop at Market Y, then at Market Z, then, as a last resort, at Market X. This will effectively stop you from shopping at Market X, without insulting you. Similarly, God provides alternatives to wife-beating; reasoning with her first, then employing certain negative incentives. Remember that the theme of this sura is defending the women's rights and countering the prevalent oppression of women. Any interpretation of the verses of this sura must be in favor of the women. This sura's theme is ``protection of women.''

**4:34 This expression simply means that God is appointing the husband as ``captain of the ship.'' Marriage is like a ship, and the captain runs it after due consultation with his officers. A believing wife readily accepts God's appointment, without mutiny.

Remember, women are equal to men, in fact, in the case of being accused of adultery Women have the LAST SAY:

[24:4] Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.

[24:5] If they repent afterwards and reform, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

[24:6] As for those who accuse their own spouses, without any other witnesses, then the testimony may be accepted if he swears by GOD four times that he is telling the truth.

[24:7] The fifth oath shall be to incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying.

[24:8] She shall be considered innocent if she swears by GOD four times that he is a liar.

[24:9] The fifth oath shall incur GOD's wrath upon her if he was telling the truth.

[24:10] This is GOD's grace and mercy towards you. GOD is Redeemer, Most Wise.

[3:195] Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams." Such is the reward from GOD. GOD possesses the ultimate reward.

This is why it is CRITICAL when someone is studying any scripture to study the WHOLE book, not take one verse out of context.

 

[gnostic]

Remember, women are equal to men, in fact, in the case of being accused of adultery Women have the LAST SAY:

Sure, there are good examples that the women's rights in Islam are better than the Christians of the same period for over a thousand years, but Islam haven't evolved very well with time, because clearly, today, their rights have stagnated in many areas in Muslim communities, and in many places they have actually gone backward and their rights have been stolen by the men, including the Muslim elders, imams and the so-called spiritual leaders and scholars. Some of these leaders and scholars want women to stay at home, unless they have male escort, can't work or can't receive education. What to wear out in public.

Look at Saudi Arabia and other nations on the peninsula, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan. Part of this is cultural and political, but religion played a major part in political and social affairs. Religion also played a big part in law, and these so-called spiritual leaders have powerful voices that squash women's right in these places. That's not equal right.

It is no good to point out the past, when today in many places, their rights are no where near equal to the men.

There are also examples in the Qur'an, I don't remember where, but it point out that a woman must obey her husband. Or daughter or husband. Even sister and brother.

"Obedience" is not a word for equality. True equality involved shared responsible, joint decision, co-operation, compromises, and most important of all, equal respect.

If one must obey another (because he is the father, husband, brother or uncle), then that's not really "equality". Equality is not about one being subservient to another.

It is no good pointing out verse, because the reality is different. It's no good point out the goods the empires did, because we can't live in the past. That's why there should be changes made in Muslim communities, today - now.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

There are also examples in the Qur'an, I don't remember where, but it point out that a woman must obey her husband. Or daughter or husband. Even sister and brother.

You are right about the part of women obeying husband, wrong about the two others. And btw it is not mentioned in QUran but in sunnah

There was this very wise women in the times after the prophet peace be upon him death, who was going to marry her daughter to a king (thats why the story is famous) , and in her letter where she advised her daughter on how to win her husband's heart she said : " be his slave, and he'll be yours (i.e your slave ) " , and it explains the whole thing in two words.

We are professional in how to handle men

 

[gnostic]

I made a mistake in my previous post.

One sentence should have been read as

Or daughter or father.

Not daughter or husband.

Sorry, my bad.

Regardless of which. If one person must obey another, such as wife obey her husband, then it is not relationship built on equal partnership, because the wife is nothing more than servant or slave, especially if a husband can punish her for disobedience.

I think it is true for majority of cases for Muslim communities in non-western countries. Muslims who lived were brought up in western countries, are generally more liberal than in Muslim-populated countries. However, this also depends on how conservatives (or strict) are the families or community leaders.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

It seems that you did not read my post carefully , obeying a husband (only when what he says, do not contradict Quran and Sunnah) is a key for a women to handle her husband as she wishes

Have you ever noticed that the more a women is rebelling against her husband, more the relationship is getting weaker and weaker; well Islam gave us the solution, do what he says and you'll win his heart and mind and he'll do whatevre you want , and you'll live happily ever after

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

As for obeying your father, than you must know that its a duty on both men and women, and I belive he deserves it. We do recognise all the troubles and pain we made our pârents suffer in our childhood, and being disobedient to your parents would be the most ungrateful thig you could ever do on your life, even if you are good to other people in society you'll still be a bad person if you do not treat your parents well.