Treatments of women

[gnostic]

No matter how much are being written or taught, today, what we see are interpretations of Islamic teachings, ie. the Qur'an.

What are Islam view on women?

In Melbourne, there's a cleric, by the name of Samir Abu Hamza, who claimed that it is within husband's right to beat his wife if she refused sex. (It&squo;s OK to hit your wife, says Melbourne Islamic cleric | Herald Sun)

Should Muslim husband

Is it written in Qur'an or the Hadiths that a man can force his wife to have sex, which can include striking her?

Last and current federal governments have legislated that no man have to hit a woman, regardless of husband/wife or boyfriend/girlfriend relationships; regardless of religious teaching or cultural background. It's called "No, to violence toward women" campaign. Forced sex amounts to rape, regardless if she is a wife to a man.

Hamza have ridicule the Australian law, which says hitting wives is illegal. He seemed to indicate that forced sex is okay and it is wrong for Australian law to interfere with Muslim's man's right to beat his wife to yield and have sex.

Some Australian Muslim women were outraged by his teaching and interpretations of the Islam.

Does Hamza have the right interpretations of Islam/Qur'an or not?

 

[philip_54b]

What are Islam view on women?

QURAN Chapter 4: AN-NISA (WOMEN) VERSE 34

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme.
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا

​

Quran Chapter 2: AL-BAQARA (THE COW) verse 228:

divorced women shall wait by themselves for three periods. it is unlawful for them, if they believe in allah and the last day, to hide what he has created in their wombs, in which case their husbands would have a better right to restore them should they desire reconciliation. and for them similar to what is due from them with kindness. but men have a degree above them(=women). allah is mighty and wise.
وَالْمُطَلَّقَاتُ يَتَرَبَّصْنَ بِأَنفُسِهِنَّ ثَلاَثَةَ قُرُوَءٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَهُنَّ أَن يَكْتُمْنَ مَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ فِي أَرْحَامِهِنَّ إِن كُنَّ يُؤْمِنَّ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَبُعُولَتُهُنَّ أَحَقُّ بِرَدِّهِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ إِنْ أَرَادُواْ إِصْلاَحًا وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ
​

HADITH: Al-Musanaf by Abu Bakr Ahmad Ibn 'Abd Allah Ibn Mousa Al-Kanadi who lived 557H., Vol. 1 Part 2, p. 263:

"'Omar [one of the Khalifs] was once talking when his wife interjected, so he said to her: 'You(=woman) are a toy, if you are needed we will call you.'"

​

just tree of the hundreds , if not thousand , anti woman verses of the islam.
THAT's the view of islam on woman!

 

[DallasApple]

You know what I say to that?

Figures..(men wrote the Quran)

Love

Dallas

 

[Father Heathen]

Absolutely disgusting. Australia should deport him back to the dark, savage corner of the globe from whence he came.

 

[jamaesi]

This... again... *sighs*

No matter how much are being written or taught, today, what we see are interpretations of Islamic teachings, ie. the Qur'an.

... Sorry to cut out most of the OP, but my post is too long...

Does Hamza have the right interpretations of Islam/Qur'an or not?

In Islam, a husband does NOT have the right to beat his wife in any circumstance. In Islam, a husband does NOT have the right to force his wife into having sex with him.

In Islam, husbands and wives are described as "garments" for each other (They are garments for you and you are garments for them. Qur'an 2.187). That's how close their relationship is.

Your clothing protects you. In cold weather, thick coats keep you warm. In warm weather, loose cotton clothing keeps you cool and protects your skin from the sun. Your clothing protects you from the elements or getting scratched up when walking by a brier bush. Wearing clothing keeps you from humiliation- almost everyone has a dream where they show up at school or work completely naked and full of shame. When you don't feel well, people usually have a soft oversized shirt or such they like to wear that brings them comfort. Most people have one article of clothing or an outfit, that when they wear it, they feel beautiful. When a Muslim wears clothing as directed in Islam, with both men and women covering themselves, it helps them guard their bodies and helps them be modest.

This is what your spouse does in Islam- they protect you, they bring you comfort, they make you happy, they help you guard your modesty (as in Islam, sexual relations are only allowed to married spouses).

There's so many verses in the Qur'an that further explain how their relationship is supposed to be, it is supposed to be one full of peace and kindness and mercy and respect and maturity and compassion and a desire for the other spouse to be happy, even if they have to put their own desires aside for the other to be happy...

In Islam, marriage is not supposed to be where the husband is a tyrant and orders his wife around and all the wife can do is meekly obey. That is not what marriage is supposed to be. :no: Marriage is a partnership. Husbands are considered the heads of the household, not dictators, families are supposed to make decisions together, the man can't just ignore them and their desires and wishes. Muhammad, peace be upon him, asked advice from his wives in all manners, even on topics like military matters, which is a topic that women back then were unfamiliar with. Muhammad used to help his wives with household chores, as well.


Now, I'll be blunt- sex is an extremely important part of a good relationship. That's part of marriage, sex! Islam is very sex-positive. We have desires and they are completely natural, and having sex with your spouse is a beautiful thing and is very encouraged. Islam does not encourage celibacy in the least, we're supposed to get married and have a healthy and safe way to satisfy those urges.

Not having sex, especially when one desires it and the other doesn't, strains a relationship. I've read lots of studies/articles/advice about it and going by my personal experience, disagreements over sex and money seem to be the most damaging things for a marriage.

In Islam, both the husband and the wife have a right to sex and to gain pleasure from it. Men are supposed to make sure that sex is enjoyable for their wife, like by doing things like kiss and to cuddle and to have foreplay and to make sure that his wife also reaches orgasm. When a man initiates sex with his wife, she's expected to respond- but this does not make her out to a sex slave or the like, far from it, it should be because their marriage is a happy and Islamic one, and because they wish to please each other and fulfill each others rights and desires.

Of course, if the wife isn't feeling well or something like that, of course the husband can't expect her to be up for sex- and that's another important thing. Husbands have to have respect for their wives and know they are not machines and can just be switched on and off just like that! The husband needs to take his wife's current state and desires in mind and be loving and compassionate and not be a brute and make unreasonable demands on her.

If one spouse decides to just never have sex, that's a problem. They can, of course, freely refuse the other partner's desire to have sex, even though it is disliked. It is the right of the husband/wife to have sex with their spouse... That's when things like going to a doctor to see if there is an hormonal problem or seeing a marriage counselor or many other options come in...


Now, as for the infamous verse that "allows spousal abuse"- it doesn't. I'll quote it...

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

First, let me explain the verse a little, where it says that men are the "protectors/maintainers" of women. Generally, men are larger and stronger than women on average. Of course, some men are weaker than your average woman, and that some women are stronger than your average man, but that's a minority. There's nothing sexist or wrong about that, it's just how things are. Men have the responsibility of physically protecting women.

Just to throw a personal experience in this, I'm a woman. I'm 5'2". I'm disabled. Most men are going to be a lot stronger and better able to fight a lot better than I can, even though I come equipped with a cane that can be a formidable weapon. Shortly after the election, I was walking with a few friends to one of my friend's apartment. Outside of the apartments there were a group of people, whites and blacks- who were getting worked up about the election and blocking the entrance to the apartments. There were four of us, my friend M and her boyfriend (who are white), my other friend J (he's black), and me ( I'm mixed, a little white, hispanic, punjabi melting pot). A violent fight broke out between those groups while we were trying to get around them and to her apartment. M's boyfriend pulled her away quickly, they ran. My friend J, who is a large man, grabbed me, shielded me with his body, and kept me safe until we could get out at a much slower pace- remember, I'm disabled. If J hadn't have done that, I could have been hurt- even if I wasn't disabled, I'm still a small woman. It wasn't sexist, J could far better take on an angry mob than I could, and I'm really thankful to J for doing that.

As for men being the maintainers of women- in Islam, men are supposed to provide financially for a woman, like a father provide for his daughter or a husband provide her his life. Men have to pay for a woman's housing/shelter, food, clothing, medical care, education... even if the woman has her own job and can afford to do those things, it's the man's responsibility. A man can not have his wife's money, it is her money to spend on whatever she wants to. (On that note, that's why women inherit less than men, it's not sexism, it's that men have to provide for their families while women don't.)


(((Continued in next post... sorry, the software won't let me post this all as one post...))

 

[jamaesi]

(((And it continues!!!)))



Now, as for this part...

As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

... let me explainify.

Where is says disloyalty and ill-conduct, this does not mean a husband can discipline his wife whenever he feels like it, the Arabic word used refers more to lewdness/adultery...

Now, the first step here is to communicate. You need to talk to your wife about what the problem is. Now if that doesn't work, the second step is basically sleep on the sofa, a cooling off period. As a last result, the word used is "daraba" which is translated as beat- that is a gross mistranslation. That word has multiple meanings, it can mean to separate or to lightly strike- when we wash our faces in ritual cleansing we are to "daraba al-ma' `ala wajhihi"- literally to lightly strike water against our faces. We don't smack our faces silly when we wash our faces in ritual cleansing. The word daraba can also mean "to have make-up sex". That's just part of the "beauty" of the Arabic language- English has a word for everything, Arabic has words that means everything... lol.

Now, we need to look at Muhammad, again. Muhammad never struck a woman or child or slave. Muhammad said that the best among you are the ones who are best to their wives and that the worse among you are those who beat your wives. Muhammad said that he didn't understand how someone could beat their wife and then lay with her at night.

Hm... something isn't adding up here...

Now, if you go by the translation "lightly strike" scholars have said it means just that, it's basically just a symbolic tap with something like a toothbrush.

Now, another thing you have to keep in mind is this, back before Islam was introduced, women were treated horribly. They were just property and no one batted an eye when someone beat a woman or even killed her. To go from being able to severely hurt your wife to just being able to give her a symbolic tap was a huge step. Now, in this day and age, where most cultures have finally accepted that woman have rights too, we've gotten to a point where even a symbolic tap isn't necessary.

HADITH: Al-Musanaf by Abu Bakr Ahmad Ibn 'Abd Allah Ibn Mousa Al-Kanadi who lived 557H., Vol. 1 Part 2, p. 263:

"'Omar [one of the Khalifs] was once talking when his wife interjected, so he said to her: 'You(=woman) are a toy, if you are needed we will call you.'"

​

just tree of the hundreds , if not thousand , anti woman verses of the islam.
THAT's the view of islam on woman!

Oh, well, I'll give you a gold star for being able to copy and paste from anti-Islamic websites.

I already explained what the verses from the Qur'an you posted there mean, so moving on to the "hadith". That hadith is a fabricated hadith. It has no part in Islam.


Islam is pro-woman! It respects us and gives us rights.

 

[stacey bo bacey]

I really don't get why guys would ever want to be like that towards women. Not only is it the #1 red flag but it is also a 100% automatic turn-off and no-go if a guy even shows the slightest disrespect towards me or any of my girl friends, be it verbal, emotional or physical.

 

[3.14]

maby if they shaved ones and a while they woulnd't need to force them to have sex (rather force them not to have sex) though those passages are good news to the masocistic womans out there and those in sm

 

[gnostic]

This... again... *sighs*

Sorry. I bring this up because of this Samir Abu Hamza, a Muslim cleric in Melbourne have brought up the subject. I lived in Melbourne, jamaesi and this is recent news.

Have you played the video at the link I have posted at OP. This is his view and interpretation of what the relationship between husband and wife.

We (I mean the Australian federal government) have brought in a law about few back which legislate that it is illegal for man to assault a woman, in a sexual or non-sexual manner. It ask the women, neighbours and community to report any form of violence against women.

Now, let's make this very clear, jamaesi. The recent law was never directed at Muslims or Islam. It was very clear that the law was about all violence against women were illegal, including domestic violence.

In Australia, domestic violence includes in the sphere of striking or assaulting wife (or in the case of Muslim family, possibly wives), sexually assaulting wife, forcing sex and rape.

Do you understand what I am saying, jamaesi? The (Australian) law is about man's violent treatment of women, regardless of race, culture or religion.

This cleric, however, chose to mock our law about domestic violence, and say that Australian law have no rights whatsoever to interfere a Muslim marriage and family.

He also mocked Australians and Australian culture, and stereotyped that every Australians drink booze, take drugs and gambled. And since it is legal to drink and gamble, then our laws should not and cannot dictate what is rape or sexual assaults or just plain assaults that Muslim men may inflict upon their wives.

Many of my friends, of both religious and non-religious background, don't drink, do drugs or gamble. I don't either.

Some Muslims here have complained about non-Muslims stereotyping Muslims, and yet many Muslims do exactly the same things with stereotyping.

Do you think what Hamza is right?

Do you think Australia's court have the rights and responsibility to prosecute a Muslim who commit domestic violence against his wife?

Hamza don't believe so.

If you do a google on Hamza's full name, you will find many other similar recordings of his teaching and interpretations of Islam, and you will find it certainly disagree with your views about Islam and how a Muslim man can conduct in a marriage.

Do you think I should believe in his interpretation on the treatment of Muslim wives or yours?

And if Islam are against beating women, then why is he against Australia law in regarding violent treatment against women? Especially against men who beat their wives?

Obviously, he want Muslim men to have immunity from Australian law. Why?

If he want to be Australian citizen, then he should bl@#dy well :foot: accept Australian legal law, instead insulting every ordinary Australian citizens, including Australian Muslims.

 

[jamaesi]

Uh... ?

I'm not sure what exactly you want me to say? I just explained to you what is really the mainstream, even conservative view of marriage in Islam. Of course I don't think Hamza is right, I think he's a bloody idiot. He's pretty much dead wrong. Sure, he can interpret things however he wants, but that's not how Islam works... I looked him up on Wiki and he's a Salafi/Wahhabi, well that explains everything.

 

[neves]

I would like to say what jamaesi posted is the majority view on this subject by muslims and also like to add that I also agree with it...

 

[jamaesi]

You know what I say to that?

Figures..(men wrote the Quran)

Love

Dallas

G-d wrote the Qur'an, men just copied it down.

But I'll give you the fact that men do like to twist the verses out of context or just assign a new meaning to a clear verse to justify whatever the heck they want, no matter how unIslamic it is.

 

[Sahar]

I would like to say what jamaesi posted is the majority view on this subject by muslims and also like to add that I also agree with it...

Yes, it was very well said. Jazaki Allahu khayran, jamaesi.

 

[gnostic]

Uh... ?
I'm not sure what exactly you want me to say? I just explained to you what is really the mainstream, even conservative view of marriage in Islam. Of course I don't think Hamza is right, I think he's a bloody idiot. He's pretty much dead wrong. Sure, he can interpret things however he wants, but that's not how Islam works...

I have brought up the issue because it was brought up last week, in the news about Samir Abu Hamza.

His words angered most Muslim women leaders in Australia, as well as the Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.

I looked him up on Wiki and he's a Salafi/Wahhabi, well that explains everything.

I did not look up the wiki.

Wahhabi, I know, but what's a Salafi?

 

[methylatedghosts]

Absolutely disgusting. Australia should deport him back to the dark, savage corner of the globe from whence he came.

That's hardly going to solve the problem!

That's just moving the problem to somewhere where you don't see it!
"Out of sight, out of mind"

IT's hardly the way to go, IMO

 

[jamaesi]

I have brought up the issue because it was brought up last week, in the news about Samir Abu Hamza.

His words angered most Muslim women leaders in Australia, as well as the Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.



I did not look up the wiki.

Wahhabi, I know, but what's a Salafi?

The terms Wahhabi and Salafi are pretty much interchangeable, in the past Wahhabi was used to refer to a ultra-conservative sect in Salafism but now Salafism is so far from it's well intentioned roots...

 

[England my lionheart]

I think Men who hit women are lower than a snakes testicles,it does'nt matter what religion they are,because of the ambiguoty of the Quran it does lead to some Muslims abusing their Women but i have met some Muslim Men who are scared stiff of their wives

 

[DallasApple]

Women are screwed blued and tatooed in MANY Holy books.In the Bible they are told to SHUT up! The man is their head..And with sex?We ALL know that especially if you are married young(which the Bible promotes ..its either that or abstinence) She by just the nature of things and bearing the children is going to have less of a drive for frequency..So its a no brainer that a certain percentage of the time she is being coerced into sex that she doesnt want under threat.

The "live with your wife in understanding" gets thrown to the way side.

Why do you think more women actually FILE for divorce than men?

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

To go from being able to severely hurt your wife to just being able to give her a symbolic tap was a huge step. Now, in this day and age, where most cultures have finally accepted that woman have rights too, we've gotten to a point where even a symbolic tap isn't necessary.

Im sorry but no one is going to give my husband permision to "lightly tap" me because I dont want to have sex.Even if he decides its "neccessary".

Other than that I agree with your views on marriage.At least how it should be.And I believe you that mainstream Islamic couples try and live that way with each other.

The problem is is women are at risk to end up with a bully or even a control freak who twist the scripture and feels entitled and in fact justified to dominate and opress her.And even worse if the woman has been taught this is her role and her fait.The way the Quran and the Bible are written its very easy for a man to take advantage or opress women.

Having said that.Im grateful for the progress that as been made for many women.Im glad I was born in the times I was..and in the country I was.

Love

Dallas

 

[neves]

Im sorry but no one is going to give my husband permision to "lightly tap" me because I dont want to have sex.Even if he decides its "neccessary".

Other than that agree with your views on marriage.At least how it should be.And I believe you that mainstream Islamic couples try and live that way with each other.

The problem is is women are at risk to end up with a bully or even a control freak who twist the scripture and feels entitled and in fact justified to dominate and opress her.And even worse if the woman has been taught this is her role and her fait.The way the Quran and the Bible are written its very easy for a man to take advantage or opress women.

Having said that.Im grateful for the progress that as been made for many women.Im glad I was born in the times I was..and in the country I was.

Love

Dallas

That "light tap" is a last resort and can only be used if you where not responsible with your husbands money on purpose(Stealing) or for adultery...

For not wanting to have sex for a prolonged period of time?... if your too old or due to sickness, you are unable to keep up with your husband then The Quran does allow polygamy for such a case... so there is no reason or excuse (nothing backing it in The Quran) to beat your wife for not wanting to have intercourse...