Time to revisit the veil question.

[stevecanuck]

You are uneducated. That's why you have to make things like this up to get away from admitting you don't know what you are talking about.

It means "draw". In the same verse you cut and pasted. The word means "draw".

In another thread, you were hypocritically arguing that word cannot mean anything but "hit".

This is just to show you that you are practicing a hypocritical methodology of pseudo scholarship to like a prayer spread hatred.

Oh, and another thing I'm not going to do is respond to your ad homs.

So, to make a real contribution to this thread you could actually comment on the verses I gave and say whether or not in your opinion they dictate that outdoor dress is at a level of covering that exceeds indoor dress to the point of full-body veiling.

 

[firedragon]

Thank you for all the verses

In the Middle East, do most Muslims agree with how you explained it here?

Hmm. Well, I have not done a survey so I can never say what most Muslims "in the middle east" think. Honestly I don't know.

 

[firedragon]

So, to make a real contribution to this thread you could actually comment on the verses I gave

Oh it was a direct comment on the verse you quoted. Only if you did the quick website lookup you yourself had linked.

 

[firedragon]

I was reading your reply, while you wrote this reply to me. I really like it, and I appreciate all your effort to clarify this

Honoured brother. Thank you.

 

[stevecanuck]

There is a TED or a TED-x talk in which a person named Samina Ali explains (or claims) that this is a scripture pertaining only to a particular situation. Here is the tedx video.

Spoiler: Samina Ali on hijabs

Thanks for this. I'll try to respond to as much as possible, but I'm entering an extremely busy week. This may take a while, but I'll start:

To a time when Prophet Mouhammed was given the task
of finding a solution to women in the city being attacked and molested.

GAMPOL (I'll use this for every Gratuitous Assertion Minus Proof Or Link). She can claim anything she wants to this way.

When a woman awoke in the middle of the night with the urge to relieve herself, she would have to walk out, past the outskirts of the city, and into the wild by herself,

What? That is too absurd for words. The night streets would be crowded with women walking back and forth. To suggest they didn't think to just use a frickin chamber pot is a joke.

Okay, the 'busy' just happened. Later.

 

[stevecanuck]

"tell your wives, your daughters, and the women of the believers
to draw upon themselves their garments.
This is better, so that they not be known and molested."
Basically, the verse advises that all women dress similarly,
so that they can't be picked out from one another,
zeroed in on, and attacked.

False alarm, I'm back.

She got that exactly backwards. It says, "so that they may be recognised and not annoyed (33:59)". This was one of the main points in the OP, which is to tell Muslim women to dress so that they differentiate themselves from others. This speaker is batting an 0-fer so far.

Hijab doesn't mean a woman's veil.

Depends on context.

And yet, isn't it strange that what the term actually means,
being screened off, divided away, barred, separated out,
these are the very terms that come to our minds
when we think of a Muslim woman?
Why shouldn't they?
We have all seen the way some Muslim women are treated around the world:
if she attempts to go to school,
she's shot in the head;
if she attempts to drive a car,
she's jailed;
if she attempts to take part
in the political uprisings happening in her own country,
to be heard, to be counted,
she is publicly assaulted.

Yes, that is an accurate description of life for women in Islamic hell-holes.

1400 years ago is long before feminism....

..... it might be a huge step forward.

A lot of irrelevant stuff and GAMPOL.

Ready and available at all times to satisfy his every whim,
even if it's to lick his entire body;
satisfying him whenever he calls,
whether it's in his bed or on the mount of a camel.
Does this sound like God's will to you?
Does this sound like scripture?

Absolutely. Verse 2:223 says, "Yusuf Ali: Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will".

Okay, gotta go

 

[stevecanuck]

They claim at minute 6:39 that there are scholars who point out verses about what women ought to wear are vague verses, and they insist the verses are purposely vague to leave the details (of style) up to the women.

They begin, however, by saying that the verse you bring up in your OP is given in response to a specific situation where women are walking out at night to relieve themselves alone in the dark, and the slaves are being accosted and raped because they don't have hijabs like the free women while the free women are being left alone. (This is what the Ted-x speaker is claiming.) So the order is given that the slave women are to dress like the free women.

Right. This speaker's entire talk was based on the ridiculous notion that women would walk all the way to the outskirts of the city to pee. I'm calling BS.

Overall this speaker in this video claims that women are to dress in a way that allows them to function in the role that they have in society, but that there is a problem in many rural cultures where small minded cleric would have it that a woman only exists to have children and to pleasure a man. It is from that, she says, that these insist all Muslim women must cover their faces at all times and that they are wrong and are interpreting the verse poorly.

I cannot actually defend the verse or attack it, but I thought you'd find this to be relevant to your OP. Perhaps you could comment and debunk or else agree with her points.

Again, thanks for posting this. It shows the absurdities that Muslims have to try to sell in order to make Islam sound compatible with the modern world.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Right. This speaker's entire talk was based on the ridiculous notion that women would walk all the way to the outskirts of the city to pee. I'm calling BS.

Slave women, were sent out; and I don't know about the islamic regulations or how things were done. Its too soon to dismiss. I'm going to withhold judgment for now, because she may be talking about something that is real.

 

[stevecanuck]

Oh it was a direct comment on the verse you quoted. Only if you did the quick website lookup you yourself had linked.

Strawman.

What you did not address is the clearly implied difference between what a woman can wear in the presence of her father-in-law and nephews versus when she's out of the house. Here is what I said in the OP:

I think it's safe to assume that a Muslim women would already be modestly dressed in her father-in-law's presence, so to insist on even further coverage when outside the house is consistent with saying that she must bring her head covering down as far as her already covered bosoms, which, by definition, would also cover her face.

Is there any part of that you disagree with?

 

[stevecanuck]

Slave women, were sent out; and I don't know about the islamic regulations or how things were done. Its too soon to dismiss. I'm going to withhold judgment for now, because she may be talking about something that is real.

Fair enough.

 

[firedragon]

Strawman.

What you did not address is the clearly implied difference between what a woman can wear in the presence of her father-in-law and nephews versus when she's out of the house. Here is what I said in the OP:

I think it's safe to assume that a Muslim women would already be modestly dressed in her father-in-law's presence, so to insist on even further coverage when outside the house is consistent with saying that she must bring her head covering down as far as her already covered bosoms, which, by definition, would also cover her face.

Is there any part of that you disagree with?

Haha. Do you remember you pretending you knew arabic, asking me to give the arabic text hoping it will be a cut and paste? I wrote it for you, and you went to google translate and tried to type the first word, returned with a truly nonsensical meaning of only the first word you claimed your wife used some time ago? That was hilarious.

Anyway, for your scholarly interpretation above, what's the methodology you used? Can you give the method?

 

[firedragon]

Absolutely. Verse 2:223 says, "Yusuf Ali: Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will".

1. What does "tilth" mean in your mind?
2. What does "tilth for you" mean in Fusha atthuraath?

 

[stevecanuck]

Haha. Do you remember you pretending you knew arabic, asking me to give the arabic text hoping it will be a cut and paste? I wrote it for you, and you went to google translate and tried to type the first word, returned with a truly nonsensical meaning of only the first word you claimed your wife used some time ago? That was hilarious.

Anyway, for your scholarly interpretation above, what's the methodology you used? Can you give the method?

Okay, I really don't care if you don't answer. Bye.

 

[stevecanuck]

1. What does "tilth" mean in your mind?
2. What does "tilth for you" mean in Fusha atthuraath?

What does it mean to you? Google it. It's not hard.

Buh bye. We're done until you enter the next thread with a new set of ridiculous diversions.

 

[firedragon]

Okay, I really don't care if you don't answer. Bye.

Lol. If you don't know anything don't pretend. Just say you have no clue.

So tell me. The word in concern that you are using there to demonise Islam by hook or crook is Himar right? So tell me. How could that mean a table cover? Do you understand?

 

[firedragon]

What does it mean to you? Google it. It's not hard.

Haha. Google? That's your method of scholarship. Others are not like you. Very few have that level of insane hate spreading agenda.

Tilth in arabic is "Harthum Lakum". Means a tilth to you. That does not mean some sick mentality of thinking women are to be tilled. It's where you are born mate. You are born of a woman. And that's where your child will be born. Harthum Lakum.

Google won't work. Your methodology of quick googling is useless. Read something like Imam Mujahid. Dont keep telling people to do googling all the time. It's embarrassing.

 

[firedragon]

Maybe Muslim men should be required to wear blindfolds out in public if they are so horny that they can't look at a woman without lusting after her?

You think everything is about someone being horny? Why do you think so? Is that some kind of study based or is it just some projection?

Utter ridiculousness.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think it's safe to assume that a Muslim women would already be modestly dressed in her father-in-law's presence, so to insist on even further coverage when outside the house is consistent with saying that she must bring her head covering down as far as her already covered bosoms, which, by definition, would also cover her face.

Is there any part of that you disagree with?

I notice that you ignore my post #54

Despite legal requirements and prevalence in certain regions, most Islamic scholars and most contemporary Islamic jurists have agreed that Islam does not require women to cover their faces.
Burqa - Wikipedia

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Strawman.

What you did not address is the clearly implied difference between what a woman can wear in the presence of her father-in-law and nephews versus when she's out of the house. Here is what I said in the OP:

I think it's safe to assume that a Muslim women would already be modestly dressed in her father-in-law's presence, so to insist on even further coverage when outside the house is consistent with saying that she must bring her head covering down as far as her already covered bosoms, which, by definition, would also cover her face.

Is there any part of that you disagree with?

Always attack the worst case, ignore other versions and declare a win, because you have won, because your type of attack.
The same could be done with e.g. the Western mental health system.

 

[Colt]

You think everything is about someone being horny? Why do you think so? Is that some kind of study based or is it just some projection?

Utter ridiculousness.

Then why the dictates to cover up women in Islam? It's the men who made the religion while women are mistreated and looked down on as second-class citizens.