There are no polytheists in the West.

[Me Myself]

Jungle, you missed this one:

Psalm 19:7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple'


The deal the Christian God offers is simple. Trade one's own life for the life he has for us. That means we give up some things that we might planned for our own life in exchange for his plans . That includes following his laws but is not exclusive to it. He also an individual plan for each of us. I believe even his laws are for my own good and for the good of those around me. He asks for faith even if I don't have complete picture of what his plans are for me.If I'm going to give up all that he asks me to and trust him with everything I have then he's going to actually provide something better if he is indeed benevolent and actually cares about me. I serve him because I believe he loves me and that he has and continues to demonstrate it in practical ways in my life. I want to know a God like that. If he didn't offer the deal that I talked about and just gave orders he would qualify as a dictator and perhaps a tyrrant. No I would not serve him if he just gave orders and would leave me twisting in the wind when I really needed him. I have no use for that kind of relationship with any god. If the Christian God didn't offer a better way I would do as most people do: exactly what I want.I would trust myself just like everyone else. And if I felt like the company of the supernatural I might even start gabbing away with Shiva or Satan or whoever else I could find that didn't criticize and/or place an imposition the plans that I had for myself.

Well, then that evidences it.

You "serve" your God because doing so serves yourself.

As you well said, you serve God because you see this better for YOURSELF. You see the sacrifices that you do as worthy FOR YOURSELF in the long run.

There is nothing wrong with this. It is precisely the attitude one should have for worship.

You have that attitude towards your three gods, we also have that attitude towards our gods.

 

[Curious George]

From what I know, their religious practices are imported from Africa. We have African religious practices that have been able to sneak their way into the West through the slave trade and been handed down to people that are in most cases probably their decendents. If their religious practices are as you say, it basically further supports my contention

I meant that it would fit your definition of Old-World Polytheism, where in the gods affected every facet of day to day life.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Jungle, you missed this one:

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Perhaps if you try wording it differently? If your point was to say that we all do what we think is best for ourselves and that in this respect we all have something common, I guess it's hard to disagree with that. Is that what you were trying to say?

 

[Me Myself]

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Perhaps if you try wording it differently? If your point was to say that we all do what we think is best for ourselves and that in this respect we all have something common, I guess it's hard to disagree with that. Is that what you were trying to say?

Naturaly, but you also say this is what we have in difference

You say that "polytheists" do what "they want" but we all do. Then you say that it is different because your God "commands", but his commands are in your best interest... but the it makes no sense that it is a "command" . You say you serve him no matter what happens and you think that polytheists don´t make sacrifices for their gods, but you seem all too confused about it.

We both do what we think is best for us, we both believe our gods know what is best.

I think the only difference may be that we don´t expect our gods to be angry with us because we didn´t do what was best for ourselves in the first place.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I meant that it would fit your definition of Old-World Polytheism, where in the gods affected every facet of day to day life.

From what I know about it, this is basically a Carribean religion practiced mainly by decents of the slaves i.e. the decendents of people who brought the religion. The Carribean isn't exactly a hotbed of Western culture and influence from what I can see compared to America, Canada and Europe. I just find it interesting that it's among people least likely to be influenced by Western culture that we find the kind of polytheism that I'm talking about.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Naturaly, but you also say this is what we have in difference

You say that "polytheists" do what "they want" but we all do. Then you say that it is different because your God "commands", but his commands are in your best interest... but the it makes no sense that it is a "command" . You say you serve him no matter what happens and you think that polytheists don´t make sacrifices for their gods, but you seem all too confused about it.

We both do what we think is best for us, we both believe our gods know what is best.

I think the only difference may be that we don´t expect our gods to be angry with us because we didn´t do what was best for ourselves in the first place.

see post 180

 

[Me Myself]

Trust is not a feeling. Trust is demonstrated by action. Do you blindly follow every suggestion your "gods" give you? Are you willing to forsake your own understanding of the events around you and ignore your five and take a leap of faith because your "god" says that the smart bet. Would you as one person be willing to take on an entire army because your "god" told you that victory would be assured, even though you couldn't possibly see how exactly you would be victorious against such odds? If the answer to those questions is "yes" you might actually be trusting your "god" with the kind of trust I'm talking about

But Shiva talks through my heart, not ancient scrolls.

If I pray to Shiva and feel an overwhelming confidence I must do something, I would do it if that is what you ask.

The difference is you think your God is black and white, "This is ALWAYS good, this is ALWAYS bad" . You think that he said it 2000 ago and it was meant to be for ever. I on the other hand, know that the indications that a deity left long time ago can very well not be the ones for today.

Times change. The "best" course of action will change too.

So yes, I trust my gods to guide me for the best course of action. I just know their wisdom is beyond anything that can be imprisoned in paper and words.

I believe the wisdom of your god is also that big, shamefully, you confuse you god with what people say your god is.

Or are you telling me your god appeared in front of you and told you to do this and that?

No.

you are trusting paper. Not only that, you are trusting that if the paper is correct about what God said then, you are trusting he wanted this for you today in all circumstances.

It makes no sense.

 

[Curious George]

This is basically a Carribean religion practiced mainly by decents of the slaves i.e. the decendents of people who brought the religion. The Carribean isn't exactly a hotbed of Western culture and influence from what I can see compared to America, Canada and Europe. I just find it interesting that it's among people least likely to be influenced by Western culture that we find the kind of polytheism that I'm talking about.

It is nonetheless in the west. But now that I think I understand your statement better, why do you believe that mainstream western culture inhibits the practice of polytheism. Would you draw connections between the linear thought process which is iconic of western civilization. I can see how your view of "typical western polytheism" prevailed in even ancient Greece which is considered to have greatly influenced western civilization.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Trust is not a feeling. Trust is demonstrated by action.

Trust IS a feeling, actions may be enacted because of trust held in something - however they are not trust, the most that can be said about them is that they evidence trust where they are enacted when there is a lack of awareness of how they are beneficial (goal attainment etc) yet the actions are done because of a 'trust' that they will be beneficial (often because the actions was suggested by something held in regard).

Do you blindly follow every suggestion your "gods" give you? Are you willing to forsake your own understanding of the events around you and ignore your five and take a leap of faith because your "god" says that the smart bet.

I sure hope not... unfortunately those philosophical traditions and approaches which suggest 'forsaking your own understanding ' and intellectual capacity seem to be inclined towards 'blindly following' in such a manner.

Would you as one person be willing to take on an entire army because your "god" told you that victory would be assured, even though you couldn't possibly see how exactly you would be victorious against such odds? If the answer to those questions is "yes" you might actually be trusting your "god" with the kind of trust I'm talking about

I see... so you are asking why aren't polytheists as willing to suspend rational thinking as monotheists in believing that their divine backers will suspend the laws of nature in favour of the individual's own direct benefit.... interesting... I hadn't ever really considered attempting to discern a relative degree of the willingness to engage in non rational (not irrational) thought between the two categories of theology.

I assume that individuals within each category would have different levels of belief in the occurrence of such phenomenon - surely there is little to suggest that there is a correlation of such belief based on the number of 'divine entities' held to exist, though perhaps we might suggest that multiple such entities may perhaps result in the perception among their followers of interference with the exercise of such power... or perhaps it may result in the perception of synergy... who can tell. Certainly you have failed to demonstrate sufficient evidence to support any claim of monotheistic traditions resulting in.greater proclivity of adherents to believe in the incidents where the natural laws are suspended (either based on frequency of such events or their scale)

 

[Polarbear]

From what I know, their religious practices are imported from Africa. We have African religious practices that have been able to sneak their way into the West through the slave trade and been handed down to people that are in most cases probably their decendents. If their religious practices are as you say, it basically further supports my contention

Are you aware of the unfortunate implications in your post? How on earth dare you call being taken as slaves by Americans and Europeens and continuing to practice your beliefs as sneaking them into the west?

However, I believe the reason you used such language is that you see pagan beliefs as evil and that they have deceived the west, hence the "sneaking in" remark. Normally I would have let this kind of thing slide or attempt to make a funny comment about it, but seeing as you have shown no respect for or understanding of polytheistic beliefs previously in this thread, despite the many attempts to reason with you makes it all the more offensive.

What is the point of this thread anyway? Is it just for you to gloat? And don't give that "I only say this in love" spiel, I don't buy it.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

It is nonetheless in the west. But now that I think I understand your statement better, why do you believe that mainstream western culture inhibits the practice of polytheism. Would you draw connections between the linear thought process which is iconic of western civilization. I can see how your view of "typical western polytheism" prevailed in even ancient Greece which is considered to have greatly influenced western civilization.

Frankly, I think it's the fact that the West is affluent that explains why people putting their hope in a god/God is on the decline. Not surprisingly, Christianity is growing exponentially in the southern hemisphere where times are generally much tougher economically. It's a whole lot easier to be an atheist, agnostic, rationalist, or adhere to whatever other form of trust of the self there is when all the obstacles life throws you are within your power to overcome

 

[Curious George]

Frankly, I think it's the fact that the West is affluent that explains why people putting their hope in a god/God is on the decline. Not surprisingly, Christianity is growing exponentially in the southern hemisphere where times are generally much tougher economically. It's a whole lot easier to be an atheist, agnostic, rationalist, or adhere to whatever other form of trust of the self there is when all the obstacles life throws you are within your power to overcome

I do not know that I agree that "all the obstacles life throws" are within westerners power to "overcome." However, the picture you paint of religion is that it is a choice born of desperation and impotence. Is that what you are trying to suggest?

 

[painted wolf]

Psalm 19:7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple'


The deal the Christian God offers is simple. Trade one's own life for the life he has for us. That means we give up some things that we might planned for our own life in exchange for his plans . That includes following his laws but is not exclusive to it. He also an individual plan for each of us. I believe even his laws are for my own good and for the good of those around me. He asks for faith even if I don't have complete picture of what his plans are for me.If I'm going to give up all that he asks me to and trust him with everything I have then he's going to actually provide something better if he is indeed benevolent and actually cares about me. I serve him because I believe he loves me and that he has and continues to demonstrate it in practical ways in my life. I want to know a God like that. If he didn't offer the deal that I talked about and just gave orders he would qualify as a dictator and perhaps a tyrrant. No I would not serve him if he just gave orders and would leave me twisting in the wind when I really needed him. I have no use for that kind of relationship with any god. If the Christian God didn't offer a better way I would do as most people do: exactly what I want. I would trust myself just like everyone else. And if I felt like the company of the supernatural I might even start gabbing away with Shiva or Satan or whoever else I could find that didn't criticize and/or place an imposition the plans that I had for myself.

So in other words you feel loved and special and warm and fuzzy... and all the things that every other polytheist seeks from their relationship with god(s).

But because you are a Christian it's ok.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Frankly, I think it's the fact that the West is affluent that explains why people putting their hope in a god/God is on the decline. Not surprisingly, Christianity is growing exponentially in the southern hemisphere where times are generally much tougher economically. It's a whole lot easier to be an atheist, agnostic, rationalist, or adhere to whatever other form of trust of the self there is when all the obstacles life throws you are within your power to overcome

You make God sound like a figment of desperate peoples imaginations. :cover:

wa:do

 

[Quintessence]

Huh. Well, as a consequence of being super busy this week doing overtime at work, I missed this thread. In spite of the folks who have taken offense to it - and no, I haven't read all 20 pages - there are some fair points at least where Neopaganism is concerned. It is the reality that at least some Neopagans are... how to say... immature with respect to how they regard polytheism? I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but when you grow up in a culture that enshrines monotheism, it is difficult to adopt a truly polytheistic religion or way of life. I takes time. Basically this means some of what the OP says (both the revised and original) is true in at least some cases. It would be unfair to characterize all Neopagans (and certainly Pagans and polytheists more generally) in this light, but it is a problem I and others have recognized in the community.

At any rate, you could call me a rationalist, a relativist, and I also do really believe my gods determine every facet of reality. Because they ARE reality; the universe itself is the gods. It's sort of hard for them NOT to determine every facet of reality when that's what they are. Frankly I do not understand how any sort of transcendent god-concept could possibly determine anything in the real world. It's part of why I'm Pagan and not a classical monotheist.

 

[Riverwolf]

What's the difference then between the spiritual beings you call "gods" and your human friends that you have deep respect and admiration for who play the role of teacher and mentor in your life?

The Gods are capable of teaching me things that my physical friends and teachers cannot ever do.

After all, the Gods have been around FAR longer, and thus have FAR more experience in most matters.

In addition, not all Gods are beneficial. I will have nothing to do with Ares.

 

[Breathe]

I will have nothing to do with Ares.

Why not?

 

[Riverwolf]

Why not?

He's an immature child.

He charges into war just to experience the bloodshed, not caring which side wins, but if he himself gets hurt, he goes crying back to daddy Zeus. Even that letch of a King has more dignity than that.

 

[Me Myself]

The way I see it, Ares has no sense as long as there is Athena.

Athena is Goddess of victory strategy and wisdom (okay, victory is Nikea, but for now they are practically interchangable )

Ares is god of... war...

I prefer victory than war, and there is no greatest victory in a war than not fighting it. good strategy also makes you lose less (or way less ) lifes in the same war, end it quick, etc.

So Athena just makes more sense, and Ares just likes to fight

 

[Riverwolf]

The way I see it, Ares has no sense as long as there is Athena.

Athena is Goddess of victory strategy and wisdom (okay, victory is Nikea, but for now they are practically interchangable )

Ares is god of... war...

I prefer victory than war, and there is no greatest victory in a war than not fighting it. good strategy also makes you lose less (or way less ) lifes in the same war, end it quick, etc.

So Athena just makes more sense, and Ares just likes to fight

Jai Athena!!!