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There are no mistakes in Quran

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. RAYYAN

    RAYYAN Proud Muslim

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    Are you going to catch me for every letter here! typical [ ] fill the blank

    not really, tell me in your example, if a woman wears Hijab, or Burqa, or just cover the hair, does that really matter? here is my point, the vague statements in the Quran don't really matter at least in our time
     
  2. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Well-Known Member

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    Pardon me, I was only interpreting based off the words you were using. Oh what's this: a perfect example of how text can be misinterpreted - how fitting! :D


    I'm curious as to where I've mentioned women's fashion, but whatever.
    Does it matter if she wears a baseball cap or has her head uncovered, or wears a tank top?
    Besides, you're picking an example that you find is trivial, even though the punishments for non-compliance of women's fashion varies greatly among the muslim countries - yet another example of how diverse Koranic interpretation is amongst muslim nations.
     
  3. DawudTalut

    DawudTalut Peace be upon you.

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    Peace be on you.
    Sorry for disagreement. When Quran mentions certain historical matters, it has two purposes; one to mention and draw wisdom from past; second to make prophecy for future. [somewhat like as Bible said again coming of Elijah ---- and it turned out to be John, the Baptist (on them be peace)]....
    Verse from [18:84] till end, have dual purpose;
    a) mention of history and
    b) to make future prophecy about Latter Days' Promised Reformer and his major Call to 3 people [viz, Christians, Muslims and his Community of Muslims], his mode of work and his success.

    Why the verse [18:87] is about Cyrus Pages 1532 to 1536
    [​IMG]
    http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1533&region=E1
    Plus previous and next pages


    According to second Ahmadiyya Khalifah (r.a.) Holy Quran tells the following properties of Dhul Qarnain


    =(1)=


    1-He would get revelations or true dreams.


    2-He went to west .


    3-Then to east.


    4-Then to a middle ground, from where Gog Magog were attacking.




    The dream of Daniel has given him name ‘dhul qarnain’ (of two horns…..it also means of two centuries) and he is from Media and Persia.


    Which king of them was good to get revelation. Isaiah 45, 1-5 tells it was Cyrus…… “I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me” it means he remembered God not by names of God in Torah. He was follower of Prophet Zoroaster……. Righteousness of him is mentioned in history. His enemies loved him too.



    “ CHARACTER AND PRAISE OF CYRUS.


    Cyrus may be justly considered as the wisest conqueror,and the most accomplished prince to be found in profane history.He was possessed of all the qualities requisite to form a great man ; wisdom, moderation,courage, magnanimity, noble sentiments, a wonderful ability in managing men's tempers and gaining their affections, a thorough knowledge of all the parts of the military art, as far as that age had carried it, a vast extent of genius and capacity for forming, and an equal steadiness and prudence for executing the greatest projects.


    It is very common for those heroes, who shine in the field, and make a great figure in the time of action, to make but a very poor one upon other occasions, and in matters of a different nature. We are astonished when we see them alone and without their armies, to find what a difference there is between a general and a great man ; to see what low sentiments and mean things they are capable of in private life ; how they are influenced by jealousy, and governed by interest; how disagreeable and odious they render themselves by their haughty deportment and arrogance, which they think necessary to preserve their authority, and which only serve to make them hated and despised.


    Cyrus had none of these defects. He appeared always the same, that is, always great, even in the most indifferent matters. Being assured of his greatness, of which real merit was the foundation and support, he thought of nothing more than…”


    Source: The ancient history of the Egyptians, Carthaginians, Assyrians ..., Volume 2

    By Charles Rollin


    It is true that world “gods” is mentioned in his talks in above book. But It may have many reason, wrong translations or any other thing.


    BUT


    “The monotheism of Cyrus can be proved from the tribute paid to him in the Old Testament (Isaiah 45:1–5). It is impossible to conceive "the God of Israel" to have praised Cyrus in such high terms if he were a dualist.Thus spoke prophet Isaiahas:


    "Thus says the LORD to His anointed,

    To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
    To subdue nations before him
    And loose the armor of kings,
    To open before him the double doors,
    So that the gates will not be shut:
    'I will go before you
    And make the crooked places straight;
    I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
    And cut the bars of iron.
    I will give you the treasures of darkness
    And hidden riches of secret places,
    That you may know that I, the LORD,
    Who callyouby your name,
    Amthe God of Israel.
    For Jacob My servant's sake,
    And Israel My elect,
    I have even called you by your name;
    I have named you, though you have not known Me.
    I am the LORD, andthereis no other;
    There is no God besides Me..."1

    Cyrus the great is also remembered in the Cyrus legend as a tolerant and ideal monarch who was called 'father of his people' by the ancient Persians. In the Bible an outstanding homage is paid to him as the liberator of the Jews captive in Babylonia.


    In short, the figure of Cyrus has survived throughout history as a man of exceptional qualities. He built a vast empire the like of which was seldom created by other warriors of heroic fame. Among the emperors, he is the only one who escaped censure by all the historians who ever wrote about great men of history. None could ever find a speck of a blemish in his character as a man or in his conduct as a monarch. He became the epitome of the greatest qualities expected of a ruler. In wars he was bold and dauntless, in conquest magnanimous. His unshakable belief in the Unity of God must have sprung from Zoroaster (as) himself.

    Zoroastrianism in all its features is closest to Judaism and Islam. Hence its precept of goodness and evil, light and darkness had to be the same as it was in Judaism and Islam. 'Ahraman' is very likely therefore, another name for Satan and no more. ” @


    Zoroastrianism




    Beware of false translation of Cyrus Cylinder: “The false translation has been widely circulated; alluding to its claim that Cyrus supposedly has stated that "Every country shall decide for itself whether or not it wants my leadership."[38]……..”


    Source: Cyrus Cylinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




    =(2)=


    Holy Quran tell that Dhul Qarnain’s victories started from west first…..He reached to place where sun was setting in murky water. It is Black Sea. History tells so.



    =(3)=


    Holy Quran tells Then he went to east, his empire spread to Afghanistan, Samarkand Bukhara. Proven from history too.



    =(4)=


    Holy Quran tells that he went to middle ground and made wall……Bible tells that people of north were Gog Magog. It also tells a king of Persia will fight with them to liberate Persia. Ezekiel 38……..Historian Josephus writes that they were Scythians tribe people. …….Historian Herodotus writes about Scythians attack from northern countries to southern countries.

    Derbent wall is in the way.


    Did Cyrus made Derbent Wall it?


    1-Alexander could not have made it as he remained busy in subduing rebellions and he could not have time to make such great thing. 2-Indication available:


    a- Dara, who was king after the son of Cyrus, attacked Scythians to break their strength. He went through Greece and attacked from Europe….. Scythians were living in north near his country, why he took long route?.....It can be guessed that because Cyrus had earlier made a wall near Derbent, it was not feasible to take large army from gates and wall was not broken too.


    b-If wall did not exist before, Dara could not have gone 1000 miles far to attack Scythians. There was danger, as they had gone far, Scythians could have attacked from sides quickly.



    ==> Thus historical Dhul Qarnain is Cyrus.


    ==> And more importantly it is prophesy for later days’ spiritual reformer, Promised Messiah Mahdi – Who was granted two main titles in accordance with word Dul Qarnain (of two horns) and he saw the times of two centuries from all calendars too.


    Continues in next post
     
    #243 DawudTalut, Feb 9, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  4. DawudTalut

    DawudTalut Peace be upon you.

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    What the chapter 18 [Surah Al-Kahf] tells

    Second Ahmadiyya Khalifah (r.a.), wrote a very long commentary of Chapter 18, and deduced that:


    1-It tells that Holy Quran was sent to correct errors crept in previous Books.

    2- And it warns those who make son of God.

    3-They shall get lot of material progress and they shall also oppose Islam.

    4- They were very weak in their own start, they were persecuted but mercy of God had saved them and gave them progress but later they started to make associates of God and leaned towards earth.

    5- Muslims are asked when they get progress they should avoid: weakness in worship, more than necessary indulgence in worldly wealth, luxurious life.

    6- At that time, Muslims and their brethren people of Books will be like poor and rich brothers. One will be overconfident for his wealth and other will pay attention to God. Eventually wealth will be diminish.

    7- Then the changes were mentioned which were foretold to Moses (a.s.) and he was told that one will come to complete the matters with unique excellence.

    8- It was told that, at the decline of Christianity, Muslim will get success. Then time will come when Muslims will forget their faith, God will penalize them by giving Christians progress again.

    9- And it will be through those nations which were stopped to move towards south and east in earlier times.

    10- The great calamity will fall on the world and world will come under two big races or two big principles. Oppression will increase.

    11- At that time God will create means to stop these advances. It is pointed that this flood will be stopped again by the people who had stopped the political uprising of Gog Magog in ancient times.


    Latter Days' Zul Qarnain in the light of last verses (verse 84 onward) of Chapter 18

    Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.) said that Dhul Qarnain takes part from two centuries [by the very meanings] and I have taken share from 2 centuries (from centuries in all calendars like Islamic, Christian, Hindu calendars....)..............By the teaching of divine revelation, I am Dhul Qarnain. God the Exalted has taught me it is prophecy But meaning related to past are not denied........ Under each of its story there is a prophecy and the story of Dhul Qarnain is prophesy for the era of Promised Messiah......God would grant him all resources to convey Message [as this era proves so, communications, connection, global village --- never such resource has ever came up in history]........He will talk to those in West for whom the sun-of-truth has sunk in murky water [i.e. they have lost faith about Unity of God i.e. those Christians who have forgotten their real teachings ] .............Then he will talk to people of East i.e those Muslims who are not understanding their peaceful teaching and are like siting under sun [proof: some of them are involved in extremism]..........Next he meets people who are confined between two walls [i.e restriction of governments, plus restrictions due to chaos], he will collect them and by heavenly signs he will make protective 'wall' for them against attacks of powers of evils. He will teach them love of God. They will be successful.

    [Gist from Hazrat Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah Mahdi (on whom be peace)'s words]

    ======
    Now after him, his Khilafat is serving this cause of peace, fifth Khalifah (a.t.) in office and message has reached in 208 countries in about 125 countries by the grace of God the Exalted.

    So it is the Zul-qarnain phenomenon in this age.
     
    #244 DawudTalut, Feb 9, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
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  5. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    There are today representatives of the major world religions that are beginning to work to gether in harmony... On the local level there are inter-faith communities in many cities and countries where people of all religions are gathering together to share their faith and support common ideals.. On the international stage you have regular meetings of the Parliament of World Religions..

    https://www.youtube.com/user/parliamentofreligion
     
  6. Godobeyer

    Godobeyer the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
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    This point only God could answer.

    Actually its already answered in Quran by Him, many times, in many verses.

    Nop,I have no problem, I mean I don't believe in them in the first place . whom not match with my belief in God.
    That not my concern about my believe, since I am believe/convince that mine is the true one :)
     
    #246 Godobeyer, Feb 10, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  7. RAYYAN

    RAYYAN Proud Muslim

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    Nice one :)

    When you said fashion, I assumed women's fashion because that is where the disagreement among the scholars exist. and No, I am not picking on an example that I find trivial, that is the only example you gave and I am going with it.

    ok, in the Quran God told women to cover, that is the basic and all scholars agree with it. where the disagreement is what and how to cover, and as I said, you take any opinion and apply it and that is ok so the disagreement is in something that doesn't matter.
     
  8. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    The dream of Daniel has given him name ‘dhul qarnain’ (of two horns…..it also means of two centuries) and he is from Media and Persia. [/quote]


    The verse says Kings not King thus plural not singular.

    19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.c]">[c] 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 45

    If this verse is talking about a King it is Darius, the one that fought against Alexander not Cyrus. Cyrus is called messiah not a two horned ram. At no point in the bible is Cyrus reference in any manner as two-horned.




    Irrelevant



    Irrelevant






    Irrelevant





    No it doesn't. You are picking body of water that is west based on your fallacious arguments above. Alexander campaign to the west as well during the Balkan and Greek rebellion.




    Alexander did as well.







    There is no evidence of a wall built by Cyrus. All the northern wall forts are attributes to others not Cyrus. Beside in the Alexander Romance Alexander did the above as well.




    The Wall of Derbent has no evidence linking it to Cyrus. Darius never took his army to the areas north of the Black Sea. Your conclusion is flawed as your ignore that Darius had no intention of moving anywhere north of the Black Sea.

    He campaigned against Bessus when the Caspian Gates were in Persia. It is only later that this name was moved to the Caucasus. So not only did he campaign in the area the name is originally attributed to one can see how you took later changes as historical facts in your argument making it based on ignorance of the history you attempt to use.. Two birds one stone



    Irrelevant given my explanation above.. Derbent also means gateway. You are making an assumption that the wall blocked all traffic. You do not even entertain the idea of a gate in said wall.




    Nope. I have refuted or undermined your arguments for this conclusion.
     
    #248 Shad, Feb 10, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  9. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Irrelevent


    Irrelevant
     
  10. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Here is a link to the version of the Alexander Romance during the emergence of Islam. The same trip, same walls, same people at the place of the setting sun, impure waters. As you can see there is massive evidence in support of my view and zero in support of the Muslim view. More so here is a tafir clearly stating who the person was. Yet here is a biography in which the figure is an angel.

    The change to Cyrus is solely based upon new information about Alexander discovered and developed from the Renaissance and onward which clearly showed Alexander was not the hero people created in the Romance, he was a pagan (polytheist), claimed to be the son of a God, etc. However unlike Christians and Jews Muslims wrote about Alexander in their scripture. They could not just ignore the folklore in their "God's Word" so make laughable weak arguments to ignore centuries of history which clearly shows the figure was about Alexander.

    http://www.attalus.org/info/alexander.html
    http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa...No=83&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageID=2
    https://archive.org/stream/TheLifeO..._Life_Of_Mohammed_Guillaume#page/n91/mode/2up
     
  11. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Well-Known Member

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    What if those other gods think you're rebellious and arrogant? What if they intend to punish those who disbelieve in them?
     
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  12. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I think I've identified the problem: when I said "old-fashion method".
    I'm assuming that there is a possibility that English may not be your native language, so I apologize, but "old-fashioned" means "an old/traditional way of doing things" and doesn't refere to clothing styles (fashion).

    Hey, it sure is a good job that I am not a god, otherwise people would be misinterpretting my posts, thinking that I am talking about women's fashion when I'm actually not. :p

    But let's use women's fashion as an example, disagreements on it may not affect you - as a muslim male - but it can very much affect a muslim woman's daily life. It may cause problems for her even more so if she interpret's the Koran's guidance on modesty differently than the scholars in her country.
     
  13. Godobeyer

    Godobeyer the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
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    I told you I don't care about what others beliefs though about me .

    everyone is free to believe or disbelieve that's what Allah said in Quran :)
     
  14. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Well-Known Member

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    But Allah and the Koran may be false, so the idea that god thinks people are free to disbelieve may be false.
    Can you understand now why I don't believe in Islam? The lack of care you have for all other religions is the same as mine, except I extend that feeling to include Islam as well.
     
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  15. Godobeyer

    Godobeyer the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
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    That's simply called "believe" , you are free to do what you want,"disbelieve or believe" as Allah said in Quran :)
     
  16. cambridge79

    cambridge79 Active Member

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    let me reformulate: "if one studies Quran oneself dancing around all the mistakes present in the kuran pretending they are not there, he won't find any mistake in Quran" wich in fact is what muslims all over the world do.
     
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  17. morphesium

    morphesium Active Member

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    No religion or holy books came from the "God". They area all man-made. Were you born with an inherent knowledge of Koran? NO. If God desired that one should follow Koran, everyone would do that.

    If God exists and it is God who made us, then it is our morale and rational thinking power (both of which are inherent to us) that is truly god sent. it is the best way God can guide (or convey his message to) us without revealing itself. It is present in every human being in every culture or race or civilization.
    Even if you read Koran 500 times - its no use and no God will like that. It can only help to cripple your rational thinking power and degrade your morale.

    God will only love to see somebody using their rational mind and morale, so start using it. Don't trust your religion.
     
  18. Godobeyer

    Godobeyer the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
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    Everyone is free to believe .
    I believe God exist , you may not, where is the problem?
     
  19. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Well-Known Member

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    Well, we're not quite free to disbelieve though are we? Since Allah punishes disbelievers with torture.
     
  20. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read the links yet, but if what you're saying is true then that's pretty damning.
     
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