There are no mistakes in Quran

[Jabar]

No compulsion in religion is a Quranic statement.
People dont follow it.

But Islam is defined by the Quranic statement. Am I wrong?

e.g. Take a hypothetical situation where a medicinal practice is final and eternal. (God that sounds very evangelical doesnt it?)
The book says "Do not eat sucrose when you have diabetes"
People dont follow it.

But the practice is defined by the statement in the book. Am I correct?

A traffic light (Red) means stop. But people dont sometimes. Does that mean red is green?

I would agree 100%.

 

[Jabar]

Which is why I stressed that it is only true as an ideal. In real terms, apparently, if the Muslim world is any example, that ideal is virtually worthless. The net result in literal terms is the Qur'an is wrong because there is so much compulsion... in everyday life... especially in the Muslim world. The reality makes a mockery of the ideal.

I never said it was worthless, just that does the Qur'an does not portray that, so this does not put an error in Qur'an and Islam at all. UNLESS the people do it themselves in a bad way.

 

[YmirGF]

I never said it was worthless, just that does the Qur'an does not portray that, so this does not put an error in Qur'an and Islam at all. UNLESS the people do it themselves in a bad way.

I never said you did say it was worthless, LOL. Don't you think that an odd way for people to take one thin book so terribly seriously and yet ignore one of its most central messages? Don't you find that just a little bit odd? I know Muslims love to smack non-Muslims with the "no compulsion" thingy as proof of the high-minded nature of Islam, but I can't help but wonder just how much the idea is promoted in Muslim majority counties. Is it even mentioned? Or is it one of those things that everyone says, but nobody means? Sort of like an Orwellian double-speak inside joke.

In his essay, Politics and the English Language, George Orwell noted, "In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible… Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness… the great enemy of clear language is insincerity. Where there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, .."

That, my young learned friend, sounds amazingly like he is describing Islamic thought, though, to be truthful, he was talking about political thought in 1946.

I maintain that "There is no compulsion in religion" is an error because of the reality of compulsion throughout the Muslim world. The phrase does not reflect reality and is in denial of reality. And again, this is coming from the being that had to compel the founder of Islam, as we know it, to "read/recite". Again, it just rings hollow as if he were joking.

 

[paarsurrey]

And again, this is coming from the being that had to compel the founder of Islam, as we know it, to "read/recite". Again, it just rings hollow as if he were joking.

Please give reference from Quran where the event is mentioned.
Regards

 

[McBell]

Please give reference from Quran where the event is mentioned.
Regards

post #1047

 

[paarsurrey]

post #1047

Which verse you mean? Please
Regards

 

[gnostic]

Jeeez... that was almost 13 years ago now...... (OK, I feel old.)
Are you still in touch with Arizona?

Sadly, I haven't heard from her in some times.

I have exchanged emails with her son, but that was at least 4 years ago, because he was hosting my website on his server, until he closed his server down, and I had to find new server.

I do miss Arizona. She is sassy for her age.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, that example is definitely faith.


No, that's also faith-based statement too.

How do you know it is both are "equal in salvation"?

The Qur'an still treat men different to women, so what make you think it is any different.

And then there is the reality that women are not treated equally in the Muslim society, in some places, and in some cultures.

For instance, a family that live in the western world, like take Australia as an example, in which have more leeway, rights and choice. Of course, Australia is still not perfect, but gender equality is of great importance. Now if the daughter is smart enough and driven enough, she can get where she want to go, success in her career. Now let say the whole family converted to Islam.

Then the question I would ask, would her position change dramatically because of they have changed religious status?

That would depends on any number of factors. If the parents are strict then possibly. But if she has always being quite independent, then probably not. And it would depends on the they have join. Is the sect more relax and liberal, then her situation might not change much, right? But it would be different if the sect were strict with customs and traditions, then her life be very different then before.

Her situation would change even more if the family were to move to a country that are more conservative patriarchal society.

To me, although the women given certain rights that were better than Christian counterparts during the 7th century, but I don't see in much of equality in the Qur'an.

A clear double standard in the Qur'an is that of men being able to have more than one wife at the same time, but a woman can't have more than one husband. If she try to have more than one husband, she would be branded as adulteress in the community and in the eye of Islamic law. How is that even fair?

There is no equality here, so I have to wonder what others restrictions women have that men don't.

Qur'an 4 is quite eye-opener on the sort of restrictive double standard. Like the husband is head of family because he is a "man", or stupid excuses used even today, like he is stronger, or he is the breadwinner, etc.

Other laws and restrictions began popping up, making the women's life even harder.

If the reality of equality don't exist in the society, then it is likely in salvation there is inequality here too.

The idea of equality in real life or in salvation, seemed like illusion to me - a myth. How is it a fact? How do you know?

You didn't get it. The statement is faith based. But if the statement is in the Quran, and I cite the verse, then it's evidence that it is indeed in the Quran.

If that can't be understood I don't know what else to say.

 

[firedragon]

.

Sadly, I heard from her in some times.

I have exchanged emails with her son, but that was at least 4 years ago, because he was hosting my website on his server, until he closed his server down, and I had to find new server.

I do miss Arizona. She is sassy for her age.

Mate. You guys go a long way. Kinda cool.

 

[Shad]

@gnostic You still have not pointed out an error in the Quran. Stop making it as though Qur'an is a science book. You are very brainswashed. The Qur'an is a book of SIGNS not science. It is a book of ayaats. Which more than 1000 have science involved in them. You are not considering the time period of when this all took place. Besides, you are not proving anything. You are just insulting prophet Muhammad peace be upon him when i believe that he is not ignorant like you in terms of religion. Just because you say that there are no mathematical equations in the Qur'an does not prove anything. But if you are looking for interesting facts that relate to math check this out:

You were the one making claims about science and the Quran.

The numerical miracle in the Qur’an involves numerous numbers, of which 7 is the primary one. But why 7? It seems that this number shares a strong relationship with the way our universe was created and structured. The Earth has seven layers: the crust, lithosphere, upper mantle, astenoshpere, lower mantle, outer core and inner core. The atmosphere has 7 layers: the Troposphere, Stratosphere, Ozonosphere, Mesosphere, Thermosphere, Ionosphere and the Exosphere. Atoms, the basic building blocks of matter, have a seven-layered structure. The universe has 7 skies, and the one we see decorated with stars at night is only one of those 7.

Look up the Bible code. Numerology is not convincing if one does not buy into it.

 

[firedragon]

Which is why I stressed that it is only true as an ideal. In real terms, apparently, if the Muslim world is any example, that ideal is virtually worthless. The net result in literal terms is the Qur'an is wrong because there is so much compulsion... in everyday life... especially in the Muslim world. The reality makes a mockery of the ideal.

Yep. But again, the Quran says no compulsion in religion.

What people do does not change the teaching. It just means that they are hypocrites.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, that example is definitely faith.


No, that's also faith-based statement too.

How do you know it is both are "equal in salvation"?

The Qur'an still treat men different to women, so what make you think it is any different.

And then there is the reality that women are not treated equally in the Muslim society, in some places, and in some cultures.

For instance, a family that live in the western world, like take Australia as an example, in which have more leeway, rights and choice. Of course, Australia is still not perfect, but gender equality is of great importance. Now if the daughter is smart enough and driven enough, she can get where she want to go, success in her career. Now let say the whole family converted to Islam.

Then the question I would ask, would her position change dramatically because of they have changed religious status?

That would depends on any number of factors. If the parents are strict then possibly. But if she has always being quite independent, then probably not. And it would depends on the they have join. Is the sect more relax and liberal, then her situation might not change much, right? But it would be different if the sect were strict with customs and traditions, then her life be very different then before.

Her situation would change even more if the family were to move to a country that are more conservative patriarchal society.

To me, although the women given certain rights that were better than Christian counterparts during the 7th century, but I don't see in much of equality in the Qur'an.

A clear double standard in the Qur'an is that of men being able to have more than one wife at the same time, but a woman can't have more than one husband. If she try to have more than one husband, she would be branded as adulteress in the community and in the eye of Islamic law. How is that even fair?

There is no equality here, so I have to wonder what others restrictions women have that men don't.

Qur'an 4 is quite eye-opener on the sort of restrictive double standard. Like the husband is head of family because he is a "man", or stupid excuses used even today, like he is stronger, or he is the breadwinner, etc.

Other laws and restrictions began popping up, making the women's life even harder.

If the reality of equality don't exist in the society, then it is likely in salvation there is inequality here too.

The idea of equality in real life or in salvation, seemed like illusion to me - a myth. How is it a fact? How do you know?

Given that if I try to prove to you logically that you are wrong about all of the above based on the Quran, you will not accept it and find any means to refute it, quoting Islamic scholars and hadith based rendering, a bit like the Daesh, I do not see any point in responding to the above claims objectively.

Cheers and thank you though for eloquently explaining your position taking time rather than spitting insults. Really appreciate it.