1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by SLPCCC, Jun 1, 2020.

  1. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    So you really think that God approves of the worship of people or people with higher rank? When Bathsheba died did they keep worshiping her? No to both questions. I don't think so. When Cornelius met the apostle Peter and fell at his feet and worshiped him. It says at Acts 10:25, 26

    • But Peter raised him up, saying, 'Stand up; I too am just a man'" (NASB).
    Only God was to be worship, not any person.
    • Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'" Matt 4:10, NASB


    You are trying to quate people who were called gods with Jesus the son of God. God did not ever say to worship any person. But he told the angle s to worship Jesus at Heb 1:6
    • And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
    Show me in the bible where God says to worship and pray to a person called god.


    If I'm dead or in heaven, yes it does. Any request made of a dead person is a prayer.
     
    #1021 SLPCCC, Jul 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  2. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    So does that mean that even now as they are dead we can pray to them to get our sins forgiven? In whose name were they able to forgive sins? Not in their own name. In Jesus' name only. Jesus gave them the ability even to also raise the dead and heal the sick. Does that mean we should worship them or call them gods? Of course not! You know that any person called god in the scripture is not to be prayed to and/or worship. Only Jesus is prayed to and worship after he died.
     
    #1022 SLPCCC, Jul 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  3. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    I believe in what the scriptures say not what religious leaders tell me. The polytheistic teaching of having a heavenly God the Father and a heavenly Mighty God goes against the clear teaching of the scriptures that there is only one God.

    • "I am He, And there is no god besides Me;" Deut 32:39, NASB
    • Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. Isaiah 43:10
    • Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'" Isaiah 43:10
    • "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:8
    Yet at John 1:1 it reads,
    • In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    How do you reconcile the teaching of there only one God with the above? I see it as Jesus is the same God. You see it polytheistically (Almighty God and Mighty God = 2 Gods) which it's not scriptural.
     
    #1023 SLPCCC, Jul 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  4. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,311
    Ratings:
    +1,292
    Religion:
    Christian
    Again, you just don't want to understand what the term god means. And until you do, until you have God's spirit to understand these things, you won't. The scriptures you quote must be applied properly, in context, something many have failed to do. Just for starters again, John 1:1 speaks of the Word, which was WITH God, and then IS God. Most recognize the Word to be Jesus. Whether you like it or not, that's two--the Word, said to be God, and the God the Word, that God was with. The scriptures you use to describe that there is no god besides God means that no god the nations have or come up with can compare or compete with Him, the ALmighty God. GOD gave His word through the prophets to HIS people. The holy spirit, by the way, is not mentioned at John 1:1. (For a reason.) You yourself keep saying the Son is in subjection to the Father. One 'God' next to the Almighty God.
     
  5. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian

    You are really funny. I counted over 30 translations of Psalm 45: 6 and they all read:

    New International Version
    Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

    New Living Translation
    Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice.

    English Standard Version
    Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;

    Berean Study Bible
    Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    New American Standard Bible
    Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    New King James Version
    Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    King James Bible
    Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

    Christian Standard Bible
    Your throne, God, is forever and ever; the scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

    Contemporary English Version
    You are God, and you will rule forever as king. Your royal power brings about justice.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    Your throne, God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

    International Standard Version
    Your throne, God, exists forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.

    NET Bible
    Your throne, O God, is permanent. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

    New Heart English Bible
    Your throne, God, is forever and ever. A scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    Your throne, oh God, is to the eternity of eternities. A straight scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter in your kingdom is a scepter for justice.



    That's God calling Jesus "God" at Heb 1:8
    • But about the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    Note that that's how it was translated in the Greek scriptures. The The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures translate it the same way.
    • πρὸς toward δὲ but τὸν the υἱόν SonThe θρόνος throne σου of youthe θεὸς God εἰς into τὸν the αἰῶνα age τοῦ of the αἰῶνος, age,

     
    #1025 SLPCCC, Jul 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  6. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    Zechariah 12:10 - "The one Whom They Pierced"
    • "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. NIV


    The large majority of reliable Hebrew manuscripts portray Jehovah as saying at Zech "they will look on Me whom they have pierced," and the New Testament portrays this verse as being fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ supporting John 1:1 that Jesus is Jehovah.


    Some of the large majority of reliable Hebrew manuscript include:

    1. The LXX [Septuagint]
    2. The Old Latin [version]
    3. The Syriac Pe****ta
    4. The Aramaic Targums
    5. the Greek versions of Aquilla, Symmachus, and Theodotion
     
  7. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,311
    Ratings:
    +1,292
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus' throne, or rulership, is everlasting. Obviously there is a reason for that. It still does not indicate a trinity arrangement of three co-equal persons.
     
  8. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,311
    Ratings:
    +1,292
    Religion:
    Christian
    God cannot be killed. Godintheflesh cannot be killed.
     
  9. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,311
    Ratings:
    +1,292
    Religion:
    Christian
    As you quoted Jesus responding to Satan, if Jesus was God-in-the-flesh equal to one or two of the persons of God-not-in-the-flesh, do you think he would have answered that way, teling Satan what was written: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only." If you were there listening, would you think Jesus meant himself as the Lord your God? Jesus knew HE wouldn't do one single act of worship, not one, to the Devil, who was offering him a pretty big package if he did one act of worship to the Devil. And why did Jesus refuse? Because it is written, he said, you shall worship the Lord your God and serve him only. Again -- like God, worship can have various connotations when placed in the proper sense.
     
  10. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    The Trinity is Not Illogical?

    Yes, because Jesus was only quoting from what the scriptures about worshipping only him. As the son, he did not fulfill all the scriptures about him living on earth as God-man. I don't see the Trinity as being illogical.

     
  11. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,926
    Ratings:
    +779
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    It really doesn’t say Jesus is the God. But, I think it is good to notice also these:

    God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
    Psalms 82:1

    I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."
    Psalms 82:6-7

    Now it happened on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, that Satan also came among them.
    Job 1:6

    It happened, when men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, that God's sons saw that men's daughters were beautiful, and they took for themselves wives of all that they chose.
    Genesis 6:1-2

    There have been many sons of God that were called also gods. If they could have been called gods, I don’t see why Jesus could not be, because he acted in the name of God. God has set some people as gods for some, as here Moses is:

    Yahweh said to Moses, "Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
    Ex. 7:1

    As Bible tells, there is only one true God that is also greater than Jesus. But many have acted in the name of God and therefore were called gods.
     
  12. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,926
    Ratings:
    +779
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    In the God’s name. God’s name is also the name of Jesus, because God has given His name to Jesus:

    ...keep them through your name which you have given me,...
    John 17:11
     
  13. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    God's name is Jesus because Jesus is God. John 1:1 The Word was God. They are one! It says nothing about the name Jehovah. The name Jehovah was added by the WTS. Don't let the WTS deceive you!

    In whose name should we meet together?
    • Matt 18:20, For where two or three gather in my name [Jesus], there am I with them."
    • 1 Cor. 5:4, So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,
    Demons are subject to whose name?
    • Luke 10:17, The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your [Jesus] name."
    • Acts 16:18, She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.
    Repentance and forgiveness should be preached in whose name?

    In whose name are you to believe and receive forgiveness of your sins?

    • John 1:12 12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name [Jesus], he gave the right to become children of God-
    • Acts 10:43 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him [Jesus] receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
    • 1 John 3:23 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
    • John 5:13 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God [Jesus] so that you may know that you have eternal life.
    • John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son [Jesus] , that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    By whose name and no other, do we obtain salvation?

    Whose name should be invoked as we bring our petitions to God in prayer?

    • John 14:13-14 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name [Jesus] , so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
    • John 15:16 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit-fruit that will last-and so that whatever you ask in my name [Jesus] the Father will give you.
    • John 16:23-24 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name [Jesus] . 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
    In whose name is the Holy Spirit sent?
    • John 14:26 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name [Jesus] , will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    Whose name and authority was invoked by the disciples in healing the sick and lame?

    • Acts 4:30 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."
    • Acts 3:16 16By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.
    • Acts 4:7-10 7They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: "By what power or what name did you do this?" 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
    In whose name did Paul tell us to call upon?
    • 1 Corinthians 1:2 2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our LORD Jesus Christ-their LORD and ours:

    Whose name is above every other name?
    • Philippians 2:9-11 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    In whose name should you be going door to door?

    • Acts 1:8 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses [Jesus] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

    With your near-exclusive emphasis on Jehovah can you honestly say you are being obedient to Acts 1:8?
     
    #1033 SLPCCC, Jul 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
  14. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    What???

    Who was the Word? The word was ???
     
  15. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    Where is wisdom called a person?
     
  16. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    No. You keep confusing men being called gods with a real God. They were not heavenly gods, real gods. That would be polytheism. They were called gods because of the authority they had on other humans to pass judgment. They were humans. Satan is not a heavenly god. He is a false god. Jesus himself told us who the "gods" and "sons of God" in Psalms 82:6 really were. At John 10:34 he says
    • Jesus answered them, Is it not written ... I said, Ye are gods?

    Christ in this passage quoted the 6th verse of this psalm (Psalms 82:6), identifying the "gods" and "sons of God" here as the persons who had received God's law. They were not angels, but human judges, whose wickedness is so severely denounced in this psalm.

    You can't compare them to Jesus. Jesus is neither a regular human nor is he a false god. He came from heaven as the word and "the word was God."
     
  17. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,311
    Ratings:
    +1,292
    Religion:
    Christian
    Not all scholarly Bible commentators would agree with your assessment. Here are a few translations that can help explain, Commentators can do a good job of it, too. It depends on one's vantage point as to what or who is a God, from God, of God, representing God, etc. After you read Psalm 82:1, you might want to look at verse 6, calling these gods sons of the Most High.

    New International Version
    A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the "gods":

    New Living Translation
    God presides over heaven’s court; he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings:

    English Standard Version
    God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

    Verse 6 reads:
    Christian Standard Bible
    I said, "You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.

    Contemporary English Version
    "I, the Most High God, say that all of you are gods and also my own children.

    Good News Translation
    'You are gods,' I said; 'all of you are children of the Most High.'

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    I said, "You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.

    International Standard Version
    "Indeed I said, 'You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High.
     
  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,311
    Ratings:
    +1,292
    Religion:
    Christian
    Regardless of whether you think these gods referred to in God's inspired word at Psalm 82 are true or false gods, it does not say that all "sons of God" are false gods. So the proper understand must be applied in order to understand it. Jesus was the perfect reflection or image of his Father. He knew the Father, and the Father knew him. Yet, he was accused of making himself God. But he said he was the Son of God, not God. He never said he was God. Ever.
     
  19. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian

    They are obviously rulers and/or judges. Notice at verse 7 where it says that they will die. Also, the bible does not teach polytheism. But watch these videos on Psalms 82; I think they can explain it better than I can.



     
  20. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2020
    Messages:
    359
    Ratings:
    +54
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    He never rebuked or corrected anyone or the scriptures that called him God.

    • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    • John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
    • Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
    • 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
    • 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    • Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
    • Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6
     
    #1040 SLPCCC, Jul 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
Loading...