The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[sojourner]

So -- you believe, do you, that all three 'persons' were individually and collectively there forever, without any of them coming from the other, is that right? I mean, co-equals with no beginning. Three of them. Not one person, but three.

Geez, I wish you'd read the doctrine. You keep bringing up stuff that the doctrine patently does not say.

 

[YoursTrue]

Geez, I wish you'd read the doctrine. You keep bringing up stuff that the doctrine patently does not say.

I asked you what you believe about the doctrine. Do you believe that there were three persons, each and all co-equals, all and each of the three with no beginning? Just there with no beginning? Three persons. Whether you believe it or not, the "doctrine" doesn't make sense. Not in "essence" or reality. Anyway, have a nice day.

 

[YoursTrue]

Geez, I wish you'd read the doctrine. You keep bringing up stuff that the doctrine patently does not say.

Here is what seems to be part of the "doctrine." Do you believe it? If not, that's up to you.

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance...."

 

[sojourner]

I asked you what you believe about the doctrine. Do you believe that there were three persons, each and all co-equals, all and each of the three with no beginning? Just there with no beginning? Three persons. Whether you believe it or not, the "doctrine" doesn't make sense. Not in "essence" or reality. Anyway, have a nice day.

I believe what the doctrine says.

 

[sojourner]

Here is what seems to be part of the "doctrine." Do you believe it? If not, that's up to you.

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance...."

“Seems to be?” Don't you even know What you’re looking at? How can you pose a cogent argument if you don’t really know what you’re arguing against???

 

[metis]

“Seems to be?” Don't you even know What you’re looking at? How can you pose a cogent argument if you don’t really know what you’re arguing against???

Yep, and it's that kind of religious bigotry I left when I stopped attending my old fundamentalist Protestant church 50 years ago.

 

[sojourner]

Yep, and it's that kind of religious bigotry I left when I stopped attending my old fundamentalist Protestant church 50 years ago.

So much willful ignorance.

 

[1213]

Where in the scripture does it say that?

For example, here Paul says I am similarly:

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1 Tim 1:15

 

[SLPCCC]

For example, here Paul says I am similarly:

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1 Tim 1:15

You are taking them out of context.

You stated that God is called " I am" at Gen 3:14. You understand that at John 8:58 Jesus says,

• “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him..."

Why didn't Jesus just say before Abraham was born, I was??? Could it be that he was using God's name, "I am"??? Why did the Jews want to kill him as soon as he said that??? Jews would not stone you if you said you were 2000 years old. They would just write you off as being crazy. But if you used God's name "I Am", the way He did, crazy or not, you would get stoned. The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was saying.

 

[YoursTrue]

“Seems to be?” Don't you even know What you’re looking at? How can you pose a cogent argument if you don’t really know what you’re arguing against???

So you believe the doctrine, and that all those not holding to the faith shall perish everlastingly. The faith is this: "That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance...." So it is you that is avoiding facing that the doctrine that says if someone does not hold to the faith that there is one God in Trinity...and the Trinity in Unity. The doctrine speaks for itself and you. Since you say you believe it.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are taking them out of context.

You stated that God is called " I am" at Gen 3:14. You understand that at John 8:58 Jesus says,

• “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him..."

Why didn't Jesus just say before Abraham was born, I was??? Could it be that he was using God's name, "I am"??? Why did the Jews want to kill him as soon as he said that??? Jews would not stone you if you said you were 2000 years old. They would just write you off as being crazy. But if you used God's name "I Am", the way He did, crazy or not, you would get stoned. The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was saying.

Jesus was saying he was alive before Abraham was born. Again -- look at a Bible dictionary so you understand what it means. Ancient Greek is not the same as English. The Jews that were against Jesus knew of his mighty works. They did not want to know that he came from heaven. Was alive, existing, in heaven before he came to the earth. You can say he exists in two places at one time, but the Bible does not bear that out. Furthermore, if you do your research, you'll see that John 9:9 also has the Greek phrase 'ego eimi," (I am, or I exist, depending on sense), but does not mean he was always existing.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are taking them out of context.

You stated that God is called " I am" at Gen 3:14. You understand that at John 8:58 Jesus says,

• “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him..."

Why didn't Jesus just say before Abraham was born, I was???

Because he came from heaven, and existed before Abraham. In heaven. Then he came to the earth.

 

[SLPCCC]

Jesus was saying he was alive before Abraham was born. Again -- look at a Bible dictionary so you understand what it means. Ancient Greek is not the same as English. The Jews that were against Jesus knew of his mighty works. They did not want to know that he came from heaven. Was alive, existing, in heaven before he came to the earth. You can say he exists in two places at one time, but the Bible does not bear that out. Furthermore, if you do your research, you'll see that John 9:9 also has the Greek phrase 'ego eimi," (I am, or I exist, depending on sense), but does not mean he was always existing.

No, you are wrong again.

Capital punishment was only for serious sins: blasphemy, adultery, etc. In the Bible, saying you had a preexistence isn't blasphemy. Claiming to be one with God is. In John 10:30-33 Jesus said,

• "I and the Father are one. The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?" 33"The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (NASB).

Note, they said that Jesus was claiming to be God. Now, where would they get that idea? Could it have been where he said, "Before Abraham was, I am"? Could it be from where Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (10:30). They wanted to kill Him both times because as they said, "You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God".

Stop fighting the scriptures with the JW indoctrination. Pray to the Holy Spirit to open your eyes!

 

[sojourner]

So you believe the doctrine, and that all those not holding to the faith shall perish everlastingly.

That's not what I said. l I said I believe the doctrine of the Trinity. The "everlasting death" part isn't included in the doctrine, and since I'm not RC, I don't have to believe that. In fact, i don't think anyone "goes to hell eternally."

 

[YoursTrue]

No, you are wrong again.

Capital punishment was only for serious sins: blasphemy, adultery, etc. In the Bible, saying you had a preexistence isn't blasphemy. Claiming to be one with God is. In John 10:30-33 Jesus said,

• "I and the Father are one. The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?" 33"The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (NASB).

Note, they said that Jesus was claiming to be God. Now, where would they get that idea? Could it have been where he said, "Before Abraham was, I am"? Could it be from where Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (10:30). They wanted to kill Him both times because as they said, "You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God".

Stop fighting the scriptures with the JW indoctrination. Pray to the Holy Spirit to open your eyes!

So then since this is about the "Athanasian Creed," and it purports that those who don't believe in the trinity will perish.

 

[YoursTrue]

That's not what I said. l I said I believe the doctrine of the Trinity. The "everlasting death" part isn't included in the doctrine, and since I'm not RC, I don't have to believe that. In fact, i don't think anyone "goes to hell eternally."

Oh oh thank you for letting me know. This is about the Athanasian Creed, though, which states those who do not believe in the trinity will perish.

 

[YoursTrue]

That's not what I said. l I said I believe the doctrine of the Trinity. The "everlasting death" part isn't included in the doctrine, and since I'm not RC, I don't have to believe that. In fact, i don't think anyone "goes to hell eternally."

It does say those who do not hold the faith of the trinity will perish everlastingly.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, you are wrong again.

Capital punishment was only for serious sins: blasphemy, adultery, etc. In the Bible, saying you had a preexistence isn't blasphemy. Claiming to be one with God is. In John 10:30-33 Jesus said,

• "I and the Father are one. The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?" 33"The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (NASB).

Note, they said that Jesus was claiming to be God. Now, where would they get that idea? Could it have been where he said, "Before Abraham was, I am"? Could it be from where Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (10:30). They wanted to kill Him both times because as they said, "You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God".

Stop fighting the scriptures with the JW indoctrination. Pray to the Holy Spirit to open your eyes!

I suggest you keep figuring it out. He never said he was God. He existed before Abraham.

 

[sojourner]

Oh oh thank you for letting me know. This is about the Athanasian Creed, though, which states those who do not believe in the trinity will perish.

The Catholic Faith, at the time, was THE Faith. It was the Body of Christ. Therefore, to not believe the Church was to not believe Jesus. And the Bible does assert that belief in Jesus is necessary for salvation, so the Creed is historically Biblically correct in that regard.

 

[sojourner]

It does say those who do not hold the faith of the trinity will perish everlastingly.

Not the doctrine, itself.