YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So you conclude it is one of the three equal persons of God, always there, without creation, is that what you believe? And firedragon asked a good question.
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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?
- Thread starter SLPCCC
- Start date
SLPCCC
Active Member
You are not answering my question.
Why?
I don't conclude anything at this time other than that the Holy Spirit must be a person and not some kind of electricity.
· The Holy Spirit can be lied to - Acts 5: 1-4 , "why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit
· The Holy Spirit grieves like a person - Isaiah 63:10, "But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit. Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them."
· The Holy Spirit loves like a person - Rom. 15:30, "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me."
· The Holy Spirit has a mind - Rom. 8:27, "and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
· The Holy Spirit speaks - Acts 8:29, "And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
· The Holy Spirit helps/comforts - But when the Comforter comes, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:
Now, why don't you answer My question(s)? (I'm smiling)
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SLPCCC
Active Member
I have no problem with the scriptures. But when a religion condemns everybody else while ignoring their own errors and mistakes including predictions made of a year, that's a red flag.
firedragon
Veteran Member
\Well. You should be able to make a difference between scholarship and faith statements.
Its not like the analogy you provided. Nevertheless this is the end of that discussion. Cheers.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Coeternal spirit.
SLPCCC
Active Member
Do you mean as part of the Trinity? I'm working on that. So far I got that the Holy Spirit is a person.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
To
I'm kind of smiling here in a small way. I did answer your question; you didn't see (discern) the answer. So let me try again because I like you and want to help you -- see, when Moses was directed by God to lead the Israelites out, they were not all of them always appreciative, were they? (No, they were not.) See, that's part of the answer. These must have figured he just wasn't telling them the truth exact and nothing but. Did they consider him a false enough prophet? In a way I guess so. That's part of the answer. Another thing, some people don't even believe Moses existed, or that the events of the Hebrews there really happened.
I haven't examined all of the sayings of the "apostles" (perhaps of your churches? I don't know if you believe in that line of succession.) that sojourner was talking about. Here's another clue: since you say that the Holy Spirit is one of the three persons of God, firedragon asked a good question. Is the holy spirit 3rd person co-eternal and co-equal with the other two persons that compose God? That is linked to true or false, teachers or prophets. Is that true about God? Oh, and something else for you to consider -- who told the truth and nothing but, at Genesis when (1) God told Adam if he ate from the tree of good and evil he would surely die on the day he ate from it. The Devil said he wouldn't die. Did he die on that day? Some say yes, others say no. Some say Adam didn't really die, he eventually went to another place -- Moses did not quit because he had so much opposition, but it was hard for him even though God was using him. I won't ask you more questions now, just state that he himself did not pass into the Promised Land, and the generation that left Egypt with him died in the wilderness because of their lack of faith. God showed them who he was.
I'm kind of smiling here in a small way. I did answer your question; you didn't see (discern) the answer. So let me try again because I like you and want to help you -- see, when Moses was directed by God to lead the Israelites out, they were not all of them always appreciative, were they? (No, they were not.) See, that's part of the answer. These must have figured he just wasn't telling them the truth exact and nothing but. Did they consider him a false enough prophet? In a way I guess so. That's part of the answer. Another thing, some people don't even believe Moses existed, or that the events of the Hebrews there really happened.
I haven't examined all of the sayings of the "apostles" (perhaps of your churches? I don't know if you believe in that line of succession.) that sojourner was talking about. Here's another clue: since you say that the Holy Spirit is one of the three persons of God, firedragon asked a good question. Is the holy spirit 3rd person co-eternal and co-equal with the other two persons that compose God? That is linked to true or false, teachers or prophets. Is that true about God? Oh, and something else for you to consider -- who told the truth and nothing but, at Genesis when (1) God told Adam if he ate from the tree of good and evil he would surely die on the day he ate from it. The Devil said he wouldn't die. Did he die on that day? Some say yes, others say no. Some say Adam didn't really die, he eventually went to another place -- Moses did not quit because he had so much opposition, but it was hard for him even though God was using him. I won't ask you more questions now, just state that he himself did not pass into the Promised Land, and the generation that left Egypt with him died in the wilderness because of their lack of faith. God showed them who he was.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Did you look into the Greek? Also, wisdom is called a person, isn't it (he)?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In a religion, do the ends, means, ways, justify the teachings? So if a person isn't offered the truth, or believes someone else is wrong, or that he is right, as in the case of the Israelites and Korah, God will decide. I believe that is true. Just as Joshua said, Choose for yourselves.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
So here is what I conclude from the trinity doctrine. All three persons were existing without beginning. Three. Someone can say they are really one, but really, the doctrine says there are three "co-eternal," co-equal persons, each and all God. I don't see that in the Scriptures at all.
SLPCCC
Active Member
I'll look into that.
SLPCCC
Active Member
I believe there are scriptural ways of telling if religion is with God. One way is by looking at their fruit and their past. If you see that they are manipulating the scriptures to support their doctrine, that alone should tell you to stay away. If they demand total obedience to their leader(s) and if they are to constantly have to adjust their teaching, it's a red flag. If they did it once, they'll do it again. If something is spoil in your diner plate, throw the whole thing away.
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SLPCCC
Active Member
I see that Jesus thought of himself as God as evidence of the scriptures I put up and historians. I see the Holy Spirit as a person from more than one of the scriptures. I don't fully understand the Trinity concept but that's Ok with me. What's not OK is some religions teaching and manipulating scriptures to support their theology. Is understanding the Trinity important for salvation, I don't think so. Is changing scriptures to support a theology wrong, I very much think so.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus had followers and many left him. Also, let's be clear about this, many consider Jesus to be a false prophet. So we all must decide which direction we're going in. As far as changing or manipulating scriptures, the trinity doctrine seems to have it capped. To be a false prophet one must declare himself to be inspired. Mistakes of discernment or exegesis are not necessarily those of false prophets.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In actuality, the trinity doctrine as explained traditionally is not rational, therefore is impossible to understand. Talk about false teachers, in a way it is false prophecy telling what God is. It is, as you probably know, said to be a mystery. It is hard enough to consider one person, God, always existing without beginning. But three? No. My mind goes out on that one.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Do some research and see for yourself...
firedragon
Veteran Member
Of course as a part of the trinity/. The whole discussion is on the trinity.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have, and see no evidence that the parts ascribed to Moses were not written by him. It doesn't matter to me if every word there was not written by him. Moses kept a written account which was passed on. Redactors have no real-time real world evidence except their own opinions. The Jews kept the writings for centuries.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No, Jesus did not think of himself as God. There is nothing to say he did. The idea that he existed before Abraham shows he was with God in heaven and he was assailed by the Jews because he claimed to be God's son, in heaven and alive before he came to the earth. Look, you can't kill God. To be honest, you can't kill any part of God. When Jesus was in heaven, he was a spirit person, and the Son of God. The word God can be applied in various ways. It does not have to mean that Jesus is the Almighty Supreme God. He is the Son of God. When I speak of, or think of God, I think of the Father. I pray by means of Jesus. To the Father. As Jesus taught his disciples to pray. "Our Father in heaven, hallowed by thy Name." Our Father in heaven.