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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

SLPCCC

Active Member
No, Jesus did not think of himself as God. There is nothing to say he did. The idea that he existed before Abraham shows he was with God in heaven and he was assailed by the Jews because he claimed to be God's son, in heaven and alive before he came to the earth. Look, you can't kill God. To be honest, you can't kill any part of God. When Jesus was in heaven, he was a spirit person, and the Son of God. The word God can be applied in various ways. It does not have to mean that Jesus is the Almighty Supreme God. He is the Son of God. When I speak of, or think of God, I think of the Father. I pray by means of Jesus. To the Father. As Jesus taught his disciples to pray. "Our Father in heaven, hallowed by thy Name." Our Father in heaven.

Historians and theologians would disagree with you. Are you a historian or theologian?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I have no problem with the scriptures. But when a religion condemns everybody else while ignoring their own errors and mistakes including predictions made of a year, that's a red flag.
All religions have a past history.... and as Proverbs 4:18 shows that scriptural understanding improves over time. (Daniel 12:4,9).
For example: 1975 in Bible chronology was 6,000 years from Adam, and people (Not all) thought that could or would mean the 7th day would then begin.
Then, some thought the year 2000 would be important.
Ignoring or Not ignoring does Not change or affect the world scene as it is today which is worse than 1975 or 2000 showing now greater Bible fulfillment.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Historians and theologians would disagree with you. Are you a historian or theologian?
Seems to me those who are part of Christendom ( so-called Christian ) will back a triad god.
One does Not have to be an historian or theologian to read that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God as John wrote at Revelation 3:14 B
Only God is 'before' anything else as per Psalms 90:2
So, only God was ' before ' the beginning and pre-human Jesus was 'Not before the beginning' as his God was 'before' the beginning.- Revelation 4:11.
Thus, pre-human Jesus was ' in ' the beginning, but Not ' before ' the beginning.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to John at Revelation 3:12.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.................... So far I got that the Holy Spirit is a person.
I am wondering how a neuter "it' can be a person______________
True, God sends forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30 - but that does Not mean God sends forth a person.
God's spirit is a neuter ' it ' at Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25.
The newer King James changed the word ' itself ' at Romans 8:16; Romans 8:26, but changing 'it' to him does Not make a neuter a person.
Just as in English we can refer to a car or a ship as a 'she' but they remain a neuter ' it '.
Notice where God's spirit is found at Job 27:3_____________
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
You keep changing topics like a chicken running around without its head. Stay focus.

Thanks.

But again, you were quoting the Bible, revelations to associate with the topic at hand. Thus, the question is where do you get the coequality of the Holy Spirit since that is the topic.

I don't think that's being a headless chicken but rather staying apt. Maybe you thrive in looking for opportunities to find loopholes in people and some opportunity insult them but see that is not the forum's purpose I think. :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I believe there are scriptural ways of telling if religion is with God. One way is by looking at their fruit and their past. If you see that they are manipulating the scriptures to support their doctrine, that alone should tell you to stay away. If they demand total obedience to their leader(s) and if they are to constantly have to adjust their teaching, it's a red flag. If they did it once, they'll do it again. If something is spoil in your diner plate, throw the whole thing away.
When I was looking for God, I finally humbled myself to pray from the heart. He found me. I looked into many different religions. He found me though. I didn't even realize it at first. Almost like Saul who was confronted with Jesus on the road to Damascus. (I had been hostile and antagonistic to many that approached me about Jesus. But God met me and saw.) It was a journey for me.
Acts 8: As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6“Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Where does the teaching that the Holy Spirit is not a person come from? ......... Where is it scripturally?

Scripturally I would say " water ' because the Bible compares God's spirit to water at Isaiah 44:3.
When God 'pours out' His spirit upon people they become ' full of holy spirit ' ' filled with holy spirit' - Luke 1:15; Luke 4:1; Acts of the Apostles 4:8; 9:17; 11:22,24; 13:9.
The Bible also speaks of a people being 'filled' with wisdom, understanding or even Bible knowledge - Exodus 28:3; 1 Kings 7:14; Luke 2:40; Colossians 1:9
No one says wisdom, understanding and knowledge is a person,
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I have no problem with the scriptures. But when a religion condemns everybody else while ignoring their own errors and mistakes including predictions made of a year, that's a red flag.
First off, I would say that JW’s have condemned teachings...not so much individuals.

But say we did.... Which is worse, condemning people, or killing them?

You’ve never commented on that aspect of Christendom’s history. Why the silence?
(If you have replied to that issue, I must have missed it. I apologize.)

Surely you don’t condone such actions?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@SLPCCC we also have to take into account the situation of Moses when he was leading the people after their liberation from Egyptian slavery......the account in Numbers ch 11 is enlightening.

The opening verses set the scene...
" When the people complained, it displeased the Lord. When the Lord heard it, his anger burned, and so the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some of the outer parts of the camp. 2 When the people cried to Moses, he prayed to the Lord, and the fire died out.

Now the mixed multitude who were among them craved more desirable foods, and so the Israelites wept again and said, “If only we had meat to eat! 5 We remember the fish we used to eat freely in Egypt, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic. 6 But now we are dried up, and there is nothing at all before us except this manna!”"


Moses response was to cry out to God......
"Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families, everyone at the door of his tent; and when the anger of the Lord was kindled greatly, Moses was also displeased. 11 And Moses said to the Lord, “Why have you afflicted your servant? Why have I not found favor in your sight, that you lay the burden of this entire people on me? 12 Did I conceive this entire people? Did I give birth to them, that you should say to me, ‘Carry them in your arms, as a foster father bears a nursing child,’ to the land that you swore to their fathers? 13 From where shall I get meat to give to this entire people, for they cry to me, ‘Give us meat, that we may eat!’ 14 I am not able to bear this entire people alone, because it is too heavy for me! 15 But if you are going to deal with me like this, then kill me immediately."

This was all too much and Moses wanted to die rather than to contend with all this complaining...

What God says next is interesting.....
"The Lord said to Moses, “Gather to me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know are elders of the people and officials over them, and bring them to the tent of meeting; let them take their position there with you. 17 Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take part of the Spirit that is on you, and will put it on them, and they will bear some of the burden of the people with you, so that you do not bear it all by yourself." (NET)

How can this possibly be speaking about a third person person of the trinity? How do you take "part" of a person and divide it up between 71 people?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
You know, I was actually talking to a pastor, once, over in Georgia. And he used 2 Corinthians 13:14, to try to “prove” the trinity. He gave me his Bible, a New International version. It says (in the NIV),
“May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

He told me, “See all 3 are mentioned there!”

And I showed him that verse again. I replied, “No Sir, it doesnt. If Paul had written ‘the love of the Father,’ you might have a point of the three together; But it doesn’t.“ Then I read it to him again, out of his Bible. I stated, “It says ‘Jesus, and God, and the Holy Spirit.’ So actually, it reveals just the opposite....that Jesus is separate from God, just as that verse reveals the Holy Spirit is separate from God.”

Then, sadly, he told me to get off his porch. (He didn’t admit it, but he saw it; I could see the recognition in his eyes.) Well, he was a pastor... I guess when some idea is so ingrained, it’s hard to adapt. I bet he never used that Scripture again, to prove the trinity!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I have no problem with the scriptures. But when a religion condemns everybody else while ignoring their own errors and mistakes including predictions made of a year, that's a red flag.
I would like to comment on this as one who lived at time when expectation was high among Jehovah's Witnesses in 1975.
At no time were we ever told that this was the year that the end would come. It was 6,000 from Adam's creation and we wondered if there would be something to take place as a result.....when it didn't, we got on with our work and looked forward to what might come next.

The whole purpose of a "watchtower" (which is our logo) is to see something coming in the distance and alert the residents of the city that something was approaching....friend or foe, it didn't matter, the people were on the watch with the watchman ready to take action if necessary. If it was a false alarm, the people simply went back to business as usual. Jesus told us to "keep on the watch" and we make no apology for doing as Jesus told us to do. (Matthew 24:42-44)

There were no failed predictions, just the same prophesy that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:3-14, but there was hope that the long awaited Kingdom might come and rid the earth of all suffering at various times. There is nothing wrong with hope. That very prophesy is awaiting its final fulfillment now, as we see more and more evidence of the world falling into chaos....so we anticipate that the Kingdom will "come" as soon as God says it must.....but we have to be ready because it will take the world by surprise. We have seen with recent events how quickly things can change.....
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
A couple of thoughts about that in reference to the throne of God.

Psalm 2:6
"I have installed My King on Zion, upon My holy hill."

Psalm 93:2
Your throne was established long ago; You are from all eternity.

How do you view the phrase at Psalm 45? **Which throne was that in reference to?**

You completely avoided the question at #229. I'll ask it again here with more details:

It seems like the Wt bible mistranslates Heb 1:8, a quotation from Psalms 45. Why did they do this? Was it to support their theology? They are not inspired nor infallible.

While searching the WT library, I also found this:

"The Governing Body consists of a group of anointed Christian men . . . They are not inspired by God and hence are not infallible, but they rely on God’s infallible Word as the highest authority on earth. . . "
je pp. 26-27 - Doing God’s Will (je)


If they rely on God’s infallible Word as the highest authority on earth, why do they change the bible scriptures especially since they are not inspired by God??

 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
I would like to comment on this as one who lived at time when expectation was high among Jehovah's Witnesses in 1975.
At no time were we ever told that this was the year that the end would come. It was 6,000 from Adam's creation and we wondered if there would be something to take place as a result.....when it didn't, we got on with our work and looked forward to what might come next.

The whole purpose of a "watchtower" (which is our logo) is to see something coming in the distance and alert the residents of the city that something was approaching....friend or foe, it didn't matter, the people were on the watch with the watchman ready to take action if necessary. If it was a false alarm, the people simply went back to business as usual. Jesus told us to "keep on the watch" and we make no apology for doing as Jesus told us to do. (Matthew 24:42-44)

There were no failed predictions, just the same prophesy that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:3-14, but there was hope that the long awaited Kingdom might come and rid the earth of all suffering at various times. There is nothing wrong with hope. That very prophesy is awaiting its final fulfillment now, as we see more and more evidence of the world falling into chaos....so we anticipate that the Kingdom will "come" as soon as God says it must.....but we have to be ready because it will take the world by surprise. We have seen with recent events how quickly things can change.....

I have no problems with reading the scriptures and thinking that the end is near. The JW are not the only ones that are predicting the end times. There are many other religions preaching the same thing. The problem and difference that I see with the JW is that they, 1) condemn the other religions while making their errors along the way, 2) change bible scriptures to support their theology 3) allow their members to preach and believe themselves to be inspired by God and infallible when their own leaders admit that they are not. I see this as very misleading and I really feel sorry for the members.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
There were no failed predictions, just the same prophesy that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:3-14, but there was hope that the long awaited Kingdom might come and rid the earth of all suffering at various times. There is nothing wrong with hope. That very prophesy is awaiting its final fulfillment now, as we see more and more evidence of the world falling into chaos....so we anticipate that the Kingdom will "come" as soon as God says it must.....but we have to be ready because it will take the world by surprise. We have seen with recent events how quickly things can change.....

I have to disagree because of the urgency that is emphasized. I remembered being a child and my sister had a classmate who was a Jehovah's Witness. They emphasized so much about the "last generation" not surviving before the end that it's like putting a number or date. Jesus warns about this saying that many false prophets will appear saying, Look, it's coming." But Jesus said to ignore them because no one knows the hour or the day. Jehovah's Witnesses act like they know the hour or the day using the "last generation" as a marker. But they are always wrong like in 1975 and other years.

Most religions know about Jesus' prophecy of the last days but they also know that we don't know the hour or the day so they don't put a marker like, "Last Generation".
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
You know, I was actually talking to a pastor, once, over in Georgia. And he used 2 Corinthians 13:14, to try to “prove” the trinity. He gave me his Bible, a New International version. It says (in the NIV),
“May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

He told me, “See all 3 are mentioned there!”

And I showed him that verse again. I replied, “No Sir, it doesnt. If Paul had written ‘the love of the Father,’ you might have a point of the three together; But it doesn’t.“ Then I read it to him again, out of his Bible. I stated, “It says ‘Jesus, and God, and the Holy Spirit.’ So actually, it reveals just the opposite....that Jesus is separate from God, just as that verse reveals the Holy Spirit is separate from God.”

Then, sadly, he told me to get off his porch. (He didn’t admit it, but he saw it; I could see the recognition in his eyes.) Well, he was a pastor... I guess when some idea is so ingrained, it’s hard to adapt. I bet he never used that Scripture again, to prove the trinity!

It's difficult to prove the Trinity using the scripture in one sitting. If it was me, I would have focused on Jesus being called God in the scriptures such as:

  • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  • John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
  • Isaiah 9:6 "For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"
  • Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Paul calls Jesus God and Savior
  • Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Peter calls Jesus God, Lord, and Savior
  • 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained the faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
  • 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

These don't prove the Trinity but it's a start.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
First off, I would say that JW’s have condemned teachings...not so much individuals.

But say we did.... Which is worse, condemning people, or killing them?

You’ve never commented on that aspect of Christendom’s history. Why the silence?
(If you have replied to that issue, I must have missed it. I apologize.)

Surely you don’t condone such actions?

I believe you are wrong. JW teach that we will die if we don't convert.

I'm sorry if I didn't answer a question. Sometimes a lot of questions get thrown at me at once. Since I work, I don't have much time to reread and answer all at once. As far as Christendom’s history, I don't remember. Can you please repost or tell me the number to refer back to.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
All religions have a past history.... and as Proverbs 4:18 shows that scriptural understanding improves over time. (Daniel 12:4,9).
For example: 1975 in Bible chronology was 6,000 years from Adam, and people (Not all) thought that could or would mean the 7th day would then begin.
Then, some thought the year 2000 would be important.
Ignoring or Not ignoring does Not change or affect the world scene as it is today which is worse than 1975 or 2000 showing now greater Bible fulfillment.

The problem is a combination of things. Going back and forth on teachings and manipulating the scripture to support their own theology. They are not inspired and infallible to do such things. They change scriptures but suppose they are wrong?? If they were wrong before, they can be wrong again. We are talking about the bible! They have no right to change the bible.
 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
Scripturally I would say " water ' because the Bible compares God's spirit to water at Isaiah 44:3.
When God 'pours out' His spirit upon people they become ' full of holy spirit ' ' filled with holy spirit' - Luke 1:15; Luke 4:1; Acts of the Apostles 4:8; 9:17; 11:22,24; 13:9.
The Bible also speaks of a people being 'filled' with wisdom, understanding or even Bible knowledge - Exodus 28:3; 1 Kings 7:14; Luke 2:40; Colossians 1:9
No one says wisdom, understanding and knowledge is a person,

I don't think that's a good argument. You never have seen any of those scary movies where the monster turns into liquid or gas and goes through a keyhole to the other side then turns back into a body?
 
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