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Featured The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by SLPCCC, Jun 1, 2020.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The particular translation doesn't matter. Many translations don't go back to the "original" Greek texts -- they merely change the wording of other translations. I'm telling you that the word doesn't mean "virgin." It means "young woman." The story is so ingrained in the cultural imagination that to use anything other than "virgin" would destroy the mythos of the story.

    However, let's go with your belief that it really, historically was a virgin birth. In what way are full human beings born without benefit of human sperm? You're only supporting the argument that Jesus is divine.
     
  2. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    It has already been explained to you that divine can mean of God, among other variations.
    "of, from, or like God or a god." You might look at this definition.
    "To err is human, to forgive divine" means that everyone makes mistakes, but we should try to be like god and forgive one another. Divine basically means relating to, coming from, or like God or a god. (dictionary.com)
     
  3. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    The difference is, Jesus acts in the power of God, he could not do it without God, therefore God is the true savior and Jesus is "only" the mediator between God and men.

    Jesus therefore answered them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
    John 5:19

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
    1 Timothy 2:5

    Jesus is the King of Jews and kings can be called lord also.

    But can he be almighty, when it is said this:

    For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
    1 Cor. 15:27-28

    God has exalted Jesus, and God remains greater than Jesus.

    I think it is good to notice, it says “through him”. God created though Jesus.

    Not really, he says "My Lord and my God!”, they both were there, because as the Bible tells, God dwells in Jesus.

    … the Father who lives in me does his works. …
    John 14:10-14

    Yes, and as said before, God dwells in Jesus and therefore it can be said, God is with us.

    Bible tells God has given His name to Jesus.

    …keep them through your name which you have given me…
    John 17:11

    Paul does the same, is he also God?
    (For example Acts 26:29)

    Also, other beings have been called god the same way:

    I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."
    Psalms 82:6-7

    But, Jesus tells he speaks what God has commanded him to speak, so, are those words of Jesus, or words of God?

    For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
    John 12:49-50

    Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
    John 7:16-17

    Yes, God is in Jesus and comes visible in Jesus, because Jesus is the image of God. Person who has seen the image, has seen also God.

    in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    Colossians 1:14
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You're grasping at straws here. Either Jesus is 1) human, or 2) divine. Which is it?
     
  5. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    Jesus is God-Man.

    1. Are you aware that Jesus is worshiped?
    • Heb. 1:6, "Let the angels do proskuneo to him."
    • Heb 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    The Lamb receives Worship
    • REVELATION 5:11-14: “And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, ‘Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.’ And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, ‘To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.’ And the four living creatures kept saying, ‘Amen.’ And the elders fell down and worshiped.”

    2. Are you aware Jesus is prayed to?
    • John 14:14 “If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do.”
    • My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”
     
  6. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    First, the word 'divine' does not mean 'god a trinity of 3 co-equals.' To be clearer, the word divine means: of God, in other words, "relating to, coming from, or like God or a god." (dictionary.com) Jesus is most assuredly 'of God,' and is described as Mighty God at Isaiah 9:6. He is not, however, god-in-human-form, as if God is trapped in the flesh, somehow co-equal to two other persons in a unit of 3. Jesus demonstrated that he was the foretold Messiah.
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Ok. So you're admitting that Jesus is divine.

    One wonders, though, how you can reconcile such a statement in light of passages like Philippians 2 and Isaiah (Emmanuel).

    So you've answered my question. Jesus is not human. Jesus is divine. Correct?
     
  8. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I KNOW what the word almah means. Perhaps you didn't think so. On the other hand, you indicate that it is like a myth that Mary was really a virgin.
    Also, and noticeably, you say 'many' translations don't go back to the original Greek texts as if these translators were shoddy in their work, including the Douay-Rheims, the King James and many others..Yes, almah is a Hebrew word, and as used in the Hebrew portion of the Scriptures certainly inclines on the side of meaning virgin, although technically it means young woman. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Mary had sexual relations and was not a virgin when she conceived Jesus.
     
  9. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    (lol...is that what you think I said? <smile>) When Jesus was on the earth, he had divine qualities. As another said here, Adam had divine qualities. There is a different between Adam and Jesus, though. (Don't you think so?)
    Do you think he was he God in human form yet equal to the other two persons of the godhead? Furthermore, what is your definition of divine? I gave you a definition. And I agree with it. Jesus was and is divine, since he came from God, went back TO God. Does the word divine mean to you that Jesus is "God, a person equal to the other two persons called God?" (Please explain if you will.) That Jesus came from God and had divine qualities from God is clear. But -- <soft smile here> -- he is not and was not "God-the-son-in-the-flesh equal to two persons called God the Father and God the Holy Spirit."
     
  10. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    The word divine has more than one meaning. Divine also means: Godhead, Lord, Creator, Maker, Divine, God Almighty, Almighty, Jehovah

    The JWs use the other meaning of divine which is, godlike. But John 1:1 says that "the Word was God", not the Word was divine. Only God is prayed to; only God is worship, only God forgives sins and only Jesus is called God with a capital "G".
     
  11. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    It sounds like you agree with me here. God is in Jesus but not the father who is in heaven. Jesus is God-man. The Father is God. They both God.
     
    #1011 SLPCCC, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  12. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    Right because Jesus is in a lower position but he is still God. These are two persons. Father God and Jesus Gon-man. They are not the same. One is the father and the other the son.


    That's a false comparison. None of them are given the title of Jesus such as God with a capital "G" or Son of God, etc.

    Yes, because Jesus humbled Himself to the Father. But he still is God. Like a wife humbled herself to her husband it does not make her a lesser human.

    Now you making something up. The scriptures does not say that. It just says that when he saw Jesus Thomas responded that way. Don't add your own words.

    None of them are called God with a capital "G" as in the "Word was God" And none were able to forgive sins, be prayed to and be worshiped.
     
  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You neglected to answer the question I put to you. "In what way are full human beings born without benefit of human sperm?"
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Do other human beings have "divine qualities?" What are the differences in those qualities? Do other human beings have "divine qualities" that call them out as somehow "special?"

    Right. So Jesus is not human. He's divine. Correct?

    What's unclear is what you're saying about Jesus and about divinity. Above you said that "Jesus was and is divine." Here, you claim that "Jesus had divine qualities." It appears as though you're hedging. So let's just settle this: Is Jesus divine? Yes or no.

    Let's take another tack here:
    is the Father divine? What makes him so?
     
  15. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Let's look at your idea for a moment, then consider beyond that, if you will. One, you think Mary had sexual relations to get pregnant with Jesus, isn't that right? Two, you don't believe almah means or implies virgin. And three, you probably don't believe Adam was formed by God from dust and then God caused him to breathe. So if you can't follow that line of order, all I can tell you it was a miracle. But since you believe the creation of Adam by God, and Eve from Adam's rib is a myth, no use thinking for you about how Jesus came to be from a young woman who was not having relations with a man.
     
  16. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Uh no your not . Read your own scripture Philippians 2:6 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage:

    If he was God he would have used his Godship for his own advantage so all of us on earth would know he was God and worship in his religion. Then his gospel would have been written about by many authors who were not Christian at the time and we would all believe. Why would he not want that?
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    you're evading. In what way are full human beings born without benefit of human sperm? It's an easy question. Why don't you just answer it?
     
  18. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    By what I know, in the original text there is no capital “G”. And even if there is, it does not mean they are the same and as Bible tells, there is only one true God.

    This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
    John 17:3

    It is interesting how people who claim Jesus is God, don’t really believe what he says.

    They could be written with capital “G” as well. And why could they not declare forgiveness, if all disciples of Jesus can also forgive sins?

    Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
    John 20:23

    And, when some other people are also worshiped in the Bible, does it mean they are also God?
     
  19. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I don’t think that is what the Bible tells. I believe what the Bible tells.
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    So, if I ask something from you, does it mean I pray you?

    Are you aware that there are other people in the Bible also who are worshiped?

    Bathsheba therefore went to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. The king rose up to meet her, and bowed [shachah, proskuneo, also translated worship, meaning bow down] himself to her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a throne to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
    1 Kings 2:19

    Is Bathsheba also God?
     
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