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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are twisting the scriptures with words. Back up what you say with God's words, history, and early Church Fathers' writings.
If I believed everything the "church fathers" you believe in said, I'd be like you. (But I'm not.) Now here is what the scripture says: tell us what the "church fathers" say about it, ok?
Psalm 45:6 King James Version: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre."
Thy throne?? God's throne is --- explain psalm 45, go with the church fathers and not yourself, of course. You might want to start, I'll help you out from time to time.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
If I believed everything the "church fathers" you believe in said, I'd be like you. (But I'm not.) Now here is what the scripture says: tell us what the "church fathers" say about it, ok?
Psalm 45:6 King James Version: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre."
Thy throne?? God's throne is --- explain psalm 45, go with the church fathers and not yourself, of course. You might want to start, I'll help you out from time to time.


What Bible translation are you using because as you know the JWS' bible is corrupted. Also, use other scriptures to back up your point. This is why your arguments are weak. You don't use scriptures. This is how I know you are just going by what the WT says. Plus, I bet you can't even explain that scripture yourself LOL.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are twisting the scriptures with words. Back up what you say with God's words, history, and early Church Fathers' writings.
The Bible says what it has to. By the way, what did the "Church Fathers" say about Psalm 45:6 and 7?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What Bible translation are you using because as you know the JWS' bible is corrupted. Also, use other scriptures to back up your point. This is why your arguments are weak. You don't use scriptures. This is how I know you are just going by what the WT says. Plus, I bet you can't even explain that scripture yourself LOL.
:) You really make me smile. So figure this out, and then please say what those you deem as "church fathers" say about the following verses:
JPS Tanakh 1917
"Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Quite an interesting translation by the Jewish Publication Society of verse 6. "Thy throne given of God."
Once you figure what God's throne means then perhaps we can get into greater detail. Maybe with the comments about that from the "church fathers"?
King James Version says, Psalm 45:6 - Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.
So God's throne is forever and ever. "All authority" was given to Jesus. Now why don't you tell us that he is equal to the other two persons but in subjection to the Father, ok? I'm suggesting you pray for yourself.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are twisting the scriptures with words. Back up what you say with God's words, history, and early Church Fathers' writings.
Nothing in the scriptures says that the Son is equal to the Father and the holy spirit. (Absolutely nothing.) Thus the church fathers you think are inspired seem to make up their own doctrine.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There is only one God, yes?
There is only one God to Jesus and he called that God the only TRUE God. That does not mean as some like to say that Jesus is a false God. It means that the term God has certain applications in scripture, and it does not mean trinity, unless, of course, you think it does or want it to. :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If Jesus is fully human, and if we are fully human as well, then if Jesus (a fully human person) came from heaven, we must all (being equally fully human) come from heaven. If Jesus came from heaven, but we do not, what does that say? Does it say that there's a difference between Jesus and the rest of us? What is that difference?
You don't know? Do you really believe that Mary did not have relations with a man in order to conceive Jesus?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm aware of them and find them interesting. But that's why I was wondering how Athanasius convinced the Church that Arian was a heresy. The Apostolic Fathers, tradition, and scripture had to be his sources. I see that they teach the deity of Christ.
Constantine made the decision, didn't he? And yet -- he was baptized by a supporter of Arius.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is only one God to Jesus and he called that God the only TRUE God. That does not mean as some like to say that Jesus is a false God. It means that the term God has certain applications in scripture, and it does not mean trinity, unless, of course, you think it does or want it to. :)
"Certain applications?"
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
The Bible says what it has to. By the way, what did the "Church Fathers" say about Psalm 45:6 and 7?

  • "But with reference to the Son: 'God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness'" Heb 1:8, JWs' The New World Translation.
  • but of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, Net2
The verse in Psalm 45 is dealing with a king which would make one wonder why he would be addressed as God; however, it is not uncommon for NT writers to take a verse in the OT that seemingly deals with one subject and apply it to another. The writer of Hebrews put Psalm 45:6 and addressed it to Jesus. Therefore, Psalm 45 is a Messianic Psalm. They knew something we didn't. But it's a direct quote. Why would you change it? If you are going to quote from a source, shouldn't you quote it word for word?

Because of the Watchtower presupposition that Jesus is not God, they choose the first version; otherwise, the Father would be calling Jesus God, and that goes against Jehovah's Witness theology. Yet, most Bibles do not translate it the way the New World Translation does. They choose the other way.

Also, To say "God is your throne" doesn't make sense. Is God, Jesus' throne? God alone is on His throne, and He isn't a throne for anyone else. But I'm sure the WTS has some lame excuse.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You don't know? Do you really believe that Mary did not have relations with a man in order to conceive Jesus?
The Greek says "young woman," not "virgin." However, the story reads so much like the miraculous birth of Augustus, that it's believed that the Gospelers ripped the story off. There's much to validate the theory that the mythic Jesus was, in fact, a ripoff of the story of the god-man Augustus. But none of that answers the questions I posed to you. Why don't you answer those questions? If Jesus is not God, that means he's fully human. So, what's the difference between Jesus and the rest of us, that he gets to be God's gatekeeper? Luck of the draw? Payola? What?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The Greek says "young woman," not "virgin." However, the story reads so much like the miraculous birth of Augustus, that it's believed that the Gospelers ripped the story off. There's much to validate the theory that the mythic Jesus was, in fact, a ripoff of the story of the god-man Augustus. But none of that answers the questions I posed to you. Why don't you answer those questions? If Jesus is not God, that means he's fully human. So, what's the difference between Jesus and the rest of us, that he gets to be God's gatekeeper? Luck of the draw? Payola? What?
Thanks, I didn't think you really believed the Bible anyway. Perhaps SPLCCC can help you with the church fathers and their beliefs as well as his.
From what I recall of your posts, you really don't believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived. Most almahs (young women) were virgins at that time. So let's see, you don't believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, is that right? Also, you take issue with the following, I suppose, which state unequivocably that Mary was a virgin, i.e., did not "know a man."

New American Standard Bible
Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"

New King James Version
Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

King James Bible
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man"
(Luke chapter 1.)
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
I pray to the God and Father of Jesus by means of Jesus. Something you might not understand but hopefully you will.

Pray to Jesus too.

  • “If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do.” WTS KIT Greek Scriptures. at John 14:14
  • “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead… there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’” Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:
Jesus said at John 6:45:
  • “Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me.”
If you have learned from Jehovah, you are commanded to “come to” Jesus. Have you come to Jesus by asking Him to wash away your sins and to give you eternal life? How can you “listen to” Jesus voice if you don’t communicate with Him in prayer? How can you receive “everlasting life” if you don’t ask Jesus to give it to you? Jesus said at John 14:6:

  • “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
:) You really make me smile. So figure this out, and then please say what those you deem as "church fathers" say about the following verses:
JPS Tanakh 1917
"Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Quite an interesting translation by the Jewish Publication Society of verse 6. "Thy throne given of God."
Once you figure what God's throne means then perhaps we can get into greater detail. Maybe with the comments about that from the "church fathers"?
King James Version says, Psalm 45:6 - Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter.
So God's throne is forever and ever. "All authority" was given to Jesus. Now why don't you tell us that he is equal to the other two persons but in subjection to the Father, ok? I'm suggesting you pray for yourself.


That's all you got, please, Jews? Of course, their bible is not going to be translated in any way to support Christian theology. But the JWs are not Christian so I can see them using their bible. LOL
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
.
That's all you got, please, Jews? Of course, their bible is not going to be translated in any way to support Christian theology. But the JWs are not Christian so I can see them using their bible. LOL
I hope and believe people can see that you are being a bit biased, shall we say.
Are you saying that the Jews can't translate their own scriptures properly? Ask sojourner about this, he knows a lot and says the entire account about Mary being a virgin could have been ripped off from another account.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I'm aware of them and find them interesting. But that's why I was wondering how Athanasius convinced the Church that Arian was a heresy. The Apostolic Fathers, tradition, and scripture had to be his sources. I see that they teach the deity of Christ.
Arianism is high Christology, just not trinitarian (it's subordinationism). And it was at the end of 3rd century. The gentile Christianity grew bigger and independent of Judaism. Low Christology (Nazarenes, Ebionites) became marginalized and condemned as heresy.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Thanks, I didn't think you really believed the Bible anyway.
I do believe the bible -- to be precisely what it is: a fallible product of humanity, inspired by God, certainly, but not without mistakes and a lot of mythic writing. The bible is multivalent, so treating it a s some precisely-written textbook is a YUGE mistake.

From what I recall of your posts, you really don't believe that Mary was a virgin when she conceived.
I think the history may show that Mary was a married woman. The myth is a ripoff of the miraculous birth of Augustus.

Also, you take issue with the following, I suppose, which state unequivocably that Mary was a virgin, i.e., did not "know a man."
I said that the Greek was "young woman." I don't care what the King James says; it's a translation. Do you read Koine' Greek, BTW?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I do believe the bible -- to be precisely what it is: a fallible product of humanity, inspired by God, certainly, but not without mistakes and a lot of mythic writing. The bible is multivalent, so treating it a s some precisely-written textbook is a YUGE mistake.


I think the history may show that Mary was a married woman. The myth is a ripoff of the miraculous birth of Augustus.


I said that the Greek was "young woman." I don't care what the King James says; it's a translation. Do you read Koine' Greek, BTW?
Did you think the following translators read koine Greek? I don't read it, but I can look it up in an interlinear sometime..But that is not really your point, is it? Because you seem to believe Mary was NOT a virgin and that the story was taken from some other account.
So, do you think the following translators (other than the 2 out of more than 25 translations) read Koine Greek or perhaps you think they all translated improperly, as it seems you are implying?

Luke 1:27
New International Version
to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

New Living Translation
to a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of King David.

English Standard Version
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary.

Berean Study Bible
to a virgin pledged in marriage to a man named Joseph, who was of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary.

Berean Literal Bible
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the name of the virgin was Mary.

New American Standard Bible
to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

New King James Version
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

King James Bible
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Christian Standard Bible
to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Contemporary English Version
with a message for a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to Joseph from the family of King David.

Good News Translation
He had a message for a young woman promised in marriage to a man named Joseph, who was a descendant of King David. Her name was Mary.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

International Standard Version
to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

NET Bible
to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.

New Heart English Bible
to a virgin pledged to be married to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
To a virgin who was engaged to a man from the house of David, whose name was Yoseph, and the name of the virgin was Maryam.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The angel went to a virgin promised in marriage to a descendant of David named Joseph. The virgin's name was Mary.

New American Standard 1977
to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

King James 2000 Bible
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

American King James Version
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

American Standard Version
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Douay-Rheims Bible
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Darby Bible Translation
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name [was] Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.

English Revised Version
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Webster's Bible Translation
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Weymouth New Testament
to a maiden betrothed to a man of the name of Joseph, a descendant of David. The maiden's name was Mary.

World English Bible
to a virgin pledged to be married to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Young's Literal Translation
to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name is Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin is
 
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