The threat of eternal damnation is like gun control laws

[Aldrnari]

I find there are two (2) hell teachings:
One is the non-biblical hell of forever burning but just taught as being Scripture
The other hell is the Bible's hell: The temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.

Can we think of anyone righteous who went to hell?______
The day righteous Jesus died according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27, 31-33 Jesus went to hell the day he died.
If biblical hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.
Jesus and the old Hebrew Scriptures teach: sleep in death (Not pain )
Such as found at John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5

According to Genesis 3:19 Adam ' returned ' to where he started from the dust of the ground.
So, there was NO post-mortem penalty or punishment for dead Adam just going back to dust.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before, so Adam simply went back to where he started.
The ' dust ' of the ground is Not a forever burning place.

When the King James Bible translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire, then Christendom ( Not Scripture ) spread that 'religious-myth literal hell fire forever' teaching, and it spread like ' wild fire ' so to speak, and that is why even in today's Christendom ( so-called Christian world ) still teaches that non-biblical hell as being Scripture.

I suppose the point I was trying to make is that the two concepts cannot be compared. One is a very real world issue that we face from day to day, while the other is a threat that cannot be seen or measured.

There's plenty of studies that show mass shootings are on the rise in the US, which should be alarming and taken seriously by everyone, imo. On the other hand, hell is just the same old regurgitated threat without anything tangible to back it up as it always has been.

If there was no religious text telling us what we are suppose to fear, we wouldn't be the wiser, as far as hell is concerned. As far as I can tell, the concept of hell isn't even a natural aspect of reality, while the other is at least comprehensible in a real way, even if one disagrees with my views on the subject of gun control itself.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

People who hurt other people are psychopaths who have no empathy. Psychopaths are going to hurt people no matter what.

Most people who cause harm to others are not psychopaths. Most psychopaths are not dangerous.

 

[robocop (actually)]

"Eternal" punishment is "God's" punishment. "Eternal" is His name. Before you Mormons get mad at me for revealing that, I think it's time that people know. Therefore He punishes people as He will. Shame is perfectly appropriate to help the human race out a little bit!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

for a person to reject God's love and end up separated from Him will be eternal self-torment. Torment is the word used in the scriptures and I think God is grieved over those who spurn His love and end up in such a sad, lonely state of self-suffering apart from Him.

How do you account for the fact that many of us live satisfying lives without gods? If I found myself in an afterlife still separated from this god, why would it suddenly cause sadness, loneliness, or suffering?

 

[Fool]

I do not think the threat of eternal damnation is necessary. I don't think morality comes from the threat of eternal damnation. People are good people because they believe in the golden rule. People are good people because they have empathy for other people. People who hurt other people are psychopaths who have no empathy. Psychopaths are going to hurt people no matter what. The threat of eternal damnation is like gun control laws. Just like gun control laws do not stop criminals from using guns, the threat of eternal damnation does not prevent or cross the mind of a psychopath who has no empathy for the people they are about to hurt.

If the threat of eternal damnation did not exist at all things would not be much different than they are now. I think the threat of eternal damnation is a tool used to manipulate people who are afraid into buying more Bibles, paying tithes, or giving money to the Temple in order to supposedly gain God's favor.

An omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. It's not like it matters how many people go to Heaven or Hell to God. It's not like God will die if not enough people make it into Heaven. So what difference does going to Hell make? The idea of going to Hell exists just to allow people who have hate in their hearts feel a little better in that their desire for revenge will eventually be carried out by God.

The things is torturing and making someone suffer for all eternity has got to be the greatest possible cruel and unusual punishment. I can't imagine a God of love would be so cruel as to have eternal punishments for finite crimes. It's not like the people Hitler killed are not getting to experience eternal heavenly bliss. I think the idea of eternal suffering is born out of hate held dear by people who are petty and weak minded by not forgiving those who have sinned against them.

I choose to have faith in a God of love who would never be so cruel as to have eternal punishment.

the soul is destroyed upon physical death. the soul and the spirit is not the same thing. the personality is formed during the earthly experience. it ceases after the earthly experience. like the atheist believes the bible agrees that the dust returns to the earth. the Spirit is another matter both literally and figuratively

 

[Kenny]

Not an apt analogy unless someone deliberately burnt the child as punishment for playing with fire.

I think it is quite applicable since God doesnt want us to play with fire.

 

[Kenny]

If the law is rational and the punishment fair and proportionate, no.

But that can't be said about the concept of eternal torment, obviously.

Yes... I suppose everybody who is condemned to a punishment doesn't think it is fair and proportionate.

 

[Kenny]

Under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law the punishment fit the crime, in other words, 'equal justice' such as an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. There was No 'plus' punishment.

Also I find it interesting that in Scripture a 'tormentor' (Not a torturer) was simply a jailer as found at Matthew 18:34,30

Yes... there are many interpretations to hell, torment and what God actually meant.

However, it is interesting how people react to the gift of forgiveness because whatever it meant (jailer, torturer, or just the fact that jail is worse than living free). It is there, it is free and yet people don't really care and still say "Give me jail time... not interested in forgiveness"

 

[sayak83]

I do not think the threat of eternal damnation is necessary. I don't think morality comes from the threat of eternal damnation. People are good people because they believe in the golden rule. People are good people because they have empathy for other people. People who hurt other people are psychopaths who have no empathy. Psychopaths are going to hurt people no matter what. The threat of eternal damnation is like gun control laws. Just like gun control laws do not stop criminals from using guns, the threat of eternal damnation does not prevent or cross the mind of a psychopath who has no empathy for the people they are about to hurt.

If the threat of eternal damnation did not exist at all things would not be much different than they are now. I think the threat of eternal damnation is a tool used to manipulate people who are afraid into buying more Bibles, paying tithes, or giving money to the Temple in order to supposedly gain God's favor.

An omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. It's not like it matters how many people go to Heaven or Hell to God. It's not like God will die if not enough people make it into Heaven. So what difference does going to Hell make? The idea of going to Hell exists just to allow people who have hate in their hearts feel a little better in that their desire for revenge will eventually be carried out by God.

The things is torturing and making someone suffer for all eternity has got to be the greatest possible cruel and unusual punishment. I can't imagine a God of love would be so cruel as to have eternal punishments for finite crimes. It's not like the people Hitler killed are not getting to experience eternal heavenly bliss. I think the idea of eternal suffering is born out of hate held dear by people who are petty and weak minded by not forgiving those who have sinned against them.

I choose to have faith in a God of love who would never be so cruel as to have eternal punishment.

Gun control laws are like not having the Tree of Good and Evil in the garden in the first place.
On the the rest of the post, I have no issues.

 

[Father Heathen]

I think it is quite applicable since God doesnt want us to play with fire.

But he's the one who set the fire and the one who would shove the kid into it for playing with it.

 

[Kenny]

But he's the one who set the fire and the one who would shove the kid into it for playing with it.

I don't think so. I believe it says that it is our choice.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yes... I suppose everybody who is condemned to a punishment doesn't think it is fair and proportionate.

No, anyone with any measure of intelligence and integrity would make that determination.

 

[Father Heathen]

I don't think so. I believe it says that it is our choice.

Extortion rackets are "choices", too.

 

[Grandliseur]

The things is torturing and making someone suffer for all eternity has got to be the greatest possible cruel and unusual punishment. I can't imagine a God of love would be so cruel as to have eternal punishments for finite crimes.

The teaching of eternal suffering may be shown to be not what is going to happen. The wicked shall sleep eternally, be destroyed. Like a factory, its rejects that cannot be fixed are destroyed.

Once this is recognized, eternal damnation helps me to know what the limits are, what is clearly forbidden; it helps me know that the wicked shall be taken care of and be gone forever.
If you want scriptures on this, look at this link:

Truth Seeker - Judgment & Sheol
​

 

[Shadow Wolf]

those who spurn His love and end up in such a sad, lonely state of self-suffering apart from Him.

When I did accept god, I was sad, lonely, and greatly suffering. I rejected god, and my life has gotten so much better.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I did accept god, I was sad, lonely, and greatly suffering. I rejected god, and my life has gotten so much better.

Do you care to elaborate?
I have had the opposite experience.
I am very logical and I do not think it is logical to assume causation, which is proven out by the fact that you and I have had opposite experiences. I often wonder if turning to God is the reason why I now suffer less. I sure know nothing else seems to have helped me.

 

[Phantasman]

I do not think the threat of eternal damnation is necessary. I don't think morality comes from the threat of eternal damnation. People are good people because they believe in the golden rule. People are good people because they have empathy for other people. People who hurt other people are psychopaths who have no empathy. Psychopaths are going to hurt people no matter what. The threat of eternal damnation is like gun control laws. Just like gun control laws do not stop criminals from using guns, the threat of eternal damnation does not prevent or cross the mind of a psychopath who has no empathy for the people they are about to hurt.

If the threat of eternal damnation did not exist at all things would not be much different than they are now. I think the threat of eternal damnation is a tool used to manipulate people who are afraid into buying more Bibles, paying tithes, or giving money to the Temple in order to supposedly gain God's favor.

An omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. It's not like it matters how many people go to Heaven or Hell to God. It's not like God will die if not enough people make it into Heaven. So what difference does going to Hell make? The idea of going to Hell exists just to allow people who have hate in their hearts feel a little better in that their desire for revenge will eventually be carried out by God.

The things is torturing and making someone suffer for all eternity has got to be the greatest possible cruel and unusual punishment. I can't imagine a God of love would be so cruel as to have eternal punishments for finite crimes. It's not like the people Hitler killed are not getting to experience eternal heavenly bliss. I think the idea of eternal suffering is born out of hate held dear by people who are petty and weak minded by not forgiving those who have sinned against them.

I choose to have faith in a God of love who would never be so cruel as to have eternal punishment.

I'm inclined to agree with you. It's like saying "what pleasure would a loving God get out of knowing souls are suffering?".

Gnosis doesn't teach this, the orthodox does. There is life and death. Light and darkness. We have been given a gift, and because of our free choice, we merely accept or reject. This Aeon (material universe) is perishable. Christ/Spirit teaches of imperishable.

The orthodox use Revelations as a carrot and stick. Does one place all faith and hope in God with love, or to avoid pain? The OT worked this way (fear). The orthodox are no different.

The Father God never killed any man. If he did, wouldn't he be denying a commandment (flesh) and perfect love (spirit)?

You don't love the world so much to sacrifice your son, that you murder men, That's the other father ( John 8:44)

 

[Trailblazer]

The wicked shall sleep eternally, be destroyed. Like a factory, its rejects that cannot be fixed are destroyed.

According to my beliefs, no souls are ever destroyed. Evil souls are far away from good souls but they can still make progress in the spiritual world. They can be pardoned by God, they can supplicate to God for forgiveness, and others can help them move forward through their prayers.

Those who have died in sin and unbelief may become pardoned by God in the next world (through their prayers or intercession of the Holy Manifestations)
"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed--that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice--for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures of God? Therefore, in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness and receive light through entreaties and supplications. Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the supplications, the entreaties and the prayers of the holy ones, can acquire development, so is it the same after death. Through their own prayers and supplications they can also progress, more especially when they are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations."
('Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 232)

 

[Grandliseur]

According to my beliefs, no souls are ever destroyed. Evil souls are far away from good souls but they can still make progress in the spiritual world. They can be pardoned by God, they can supplicate to God for forgiveness, and others can help them move forward through their prayers.

Those who have died in sin and unbelief may become pardoned by God in the next world (through their prayers or intercession of the Holy Manifestations)
"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed--that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice--for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures of God? Therefore, in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness and receive light through entreaties and supplications. Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the supplications, the entreaties and the prayers of the holy ones, can acquire development, so is it the same after death. Through their own prayers and supplications they can also progress, more especially when they are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations."
('Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 232)

All kinds of beliefs for sure.
In my universe, death is destruction. Only the resurrection, (recreation) makes it possible to live again.

We have so many different views.

 

[dfnj]

Most people who cause harm to others are not psychopaths. Most psychopaths are not dangerous.

Regardless, the threat of eternal damnation does not prevent people from sinning against each other or there would be lot less sin in the World.

What does prevent people from sinning against each other is the golden rule. What does prevent people from sinning against each other is empathy for what your actions will do to the other person's feelings.

And sin is not always easily understood. What is "good" and what is "evil" is a subjective judgment made by each of us from sometimes very different perspectives. What I call a sin you many not call a sin. Some acts are easily defined as sin. But there are many others that change over time. For example, slavery and rape are really evil by today's standards but not so much 150 years ago.

And God for the most part seems like a passive observer. Based on human experiments there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. God is clearly pro-choice and indifferent to how we treat each other. If you want to have judgment, justice, and absolution, it is man's responsibility not God clean up our own mess.

In my way thinking, you do not ask God for forgiveness. In my opinion the only way to get absolution is from the people you have sinned against and not from God. Getting forgiveness from God is too easy. Getting the people who you have sinned against to forgive you directly is much more challenging. The easy way out is too popular.