The threat of eternal damnation is like gun control laws

[URAVIP2ME]

I suppose the point I was trying to make is that the two concepts cannot be compared. One is a very real world issue that we face from day to day, while the other is a threat that cannot be seen or measured.
There's plenty of studies that show mass shootings are on the rise in the US, which should be alarming and taken seriously by everyone, imo. On the other hand, hell is just the same old regurgitated threat without anything tangible to back it up as it always has been.
If there was no religious text telling us what we are suppose to fear, we wouldn't be the wiser, as far as hell is concerned. As far as I can tell, the concept of hell isn't even a natural aspect of reality, while the other is at least comprehensible in a real way, even if one disagrees with my views on the subject of gun control itself.

The non-biblical hell teaching of forever burning does Not have anything tangible to back it up....
The other hell, the Bible's hell, is comprehensible in a real way because the Bible's hell is the temporary grave for most of the sleeping dead until Resurrection Day when Jesus begins his 1,000-year rule over Earth.
We can't stop guns, but according to Micah 4:3-4; Isaiah 2:4 under Christ's coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth mankind will Not learn war any more. Mankind will Not be educated about the destructive use of guns.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

By rejecting relationship with God people are asking for eternal torment. How would God not allow it to happen if being separated from His presence is in itself the eternal torment the scriptures refer to? He can't force anyone to be in His presence for eternity since such force would be contrary to a loving relationship which is His goal.

Eternal torment, or as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked are ' destroyed forever ' (annihilated).
I find the two (2) choices given us at 2 Peter 3:9 is Not between 'eternal torment ' and to ' repent '.
I find comprehending that is this: if we do Not wish to ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) we should ' repent '.
Even sinner Satan does Not gain ' eternal torment ' (nor eternal torture), but Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B,

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It probably serves best for a people who feel that life itself is a living hell and death the only possible remedy. For those who suffer death will be heaven, for those who cause suffering, death will be their perpetual torment. Abuser and abused.

I find at 1 Corinthians 15:26 that Jesus will do away with enemy death.
So, death is Not perpetual. Jesus will resurrect the dead as per Revelation 1:18.
What I find is perpetual is as Psalms 92:7 that the wicked will be 'destroyed forever ' an in annihilated.
Even wicked Satan will be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrew 2:14 B. Sinner Satan does Not gain eternal life.

I find ALL the people Jesus' resurrected he resurrected them back to healthy life on Earth.
Jesus even promised that humble meek people will inherit the Earth as per Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.
So, Jesus was giving us a coming attraction, or a preview, of what kind of physical resurrection will take place on Earth during Christ's millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
So, the majority of people who died will Not be in heaven (John 3:13), but be right here on Earth.
Those who are in category of Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 20:6; Revelation 5:9-10; Revelation 2:10 are the ones who have that first or earlier resurrection. They are resurrected to heaven, whereas the majority of mankind can gain everlasting life on Earth, that is when mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations as promised at Revelation 22:2.

 

[Kenny]

Cherry picking the verses that make God appear benevolent. That is all this is. You should know better than to think this will work. For shame.


You're probably right. Though from what I have seen so far, and having had extensive experience speaking and interacting with people who have expressed many of the same things you have, I am pretty confident that I will continue to remain wholly unimpressed by the scope of your beliefs.

i will take that first sentence to say that i proved you wrong

Your bias is obvious. Your cherry picking, likewise.

I am not trying to impress you and don't need to.

You obviously need a course in Theology.

I can tell that this will go nowhere so I bid you "Have a happy and prosperous New Year". We will agree to disagree.

 

[Aldrnari]

The other hell, the Bible's hell, is comprehensible in a real way because the Bible's hell is the temporary grave for most of the sleeping dead until Resurrection Day when Jesus begins his 1,000-year rule over Earth.

Ok, then. If this is a comprehensible aspect of reality, show me one example of this happening in the real world, please.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Can God end the conscious soul or not? If so, then ending eternal torment is the only just thing to do. Nobody is asking for it nor deserves it. It is by definition inequitable punishment. Eye for an eye that I take out and put back in eternally is not scriptural.
If not, then it's not a very powerful God.

Since the soul dies (Ezekiel 18:4,20) and the dead are Not conscious as per Ecclesiastes 9:5, but in a sleep-like state as per Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; John 11:11-14, then I find what the Bible really teaches is Not eternal torment, nor eternal torture, but as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked are destroyed forever (annihilated).
Resurrection then is Not for the wicked either to Heaven, or back to life on Earth - Hebrews 6:4-6; Matthew 12:32.

I find death, Not death plus anything else, is the price tag that sin pays according to Romans 6:23,7.
Just as there was No post-mortem penalty for Adam but just ' returning ' to the dust of the ground.
No eternal torment for Adam, No eternal torture for Adam, but just 'returning ' to where he started, the dust.
So, Adam went from non-life, to life, and ' returned ' back to non-life or back to non-existence.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok, then. If this is a comprehensible aspect of reality, show me one example of this happening in the real world, please.

Besides the recorded physical resurrections Jesus' performed, I find all the resurrections recorded in the old Hebrew Scriptures were also physical resurrections. So, to me what is recorded in Scripture is the real world. Not just the real Jewish world of Scripture, but the coming ' real world ' under Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins. That future ' real world ' is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection...... Sure we have Not yet seen that millennial time, but I find Scripture does point to that coming ' real world ' when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth, and as 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 says that even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - Isaiah 25:8.

 

[Trailblazer]

As I asked: Should I go around piercing people because it's what I like?

No, then you would be projecting your likes onto other people, assuming they like what you like.
I think that verse is to me interpreted more generally... Most people like to be treated with kindness, dignity and respect, so we should treat others with kindness, dignity and respect.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, then you would be projecting your likes onto other people, assuming they like what you like.

Which is why the "golden rule" is crap for morality.

Most people like to be treated with kindness, dignity and respect, so we should treat others with kindness, dignity and respect.

Then just do that. Putting others first in your moral considerations towards them instead of how you want to be treated.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

i will take that first sentence to say that i proved you wrong

My mind got stuck unable to react because it couldn't decide whether to laugh or roll my eyes backward into my skull.

Your bias is obvious. Your cherry picking, likewise.

I am biased, I readily admit. And it is precisely because I have had so very many interactions with theists that have left a sour taste in my mouth. The number of times I have actually agreed while listening to a part of sermon, or relished bits of conversation with a theist, or have actually gleaned some bit of useful wisdom from such interactions have been very few and far between. How can I help but be soured on the whole mess with a track record like this?

I am not trying to impress you

This is, indeed, a good thing for you.

...and don't need to.

Agreed.

You obviously need a course in Theology.

No thanks.

I can tell that this will go nowhere so I bid you "Have a happy and prosperous New Year". We will agree to disagree.

Happy New Year to you as well.

 

[Kenny]

I am biased, I readily admit. And it is precisely because I have had so very many interactions with theists that have left a sour taste in my mouth. The number of times I have actually agreed while listening to a part of sermon, or relished bits of conversation with a theist, or have actually gleaned some bit of useful wisdom from such interactions have been very few and far between. How can I help but be soured on the whole mess with a track record like this?

OOOhhh... NOW I understand.

Can't say I blame you.

 

[Truthseeker]

This is not at all what I said. As much as you're pinning "misunderstanding" on me, you're doing a pretty bang-up job of it yourself. I was criticizing the "eternal" part of the punishment. Basically, that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Why else would I reply to your question about the judge with a question again asking if you thought it would be okay for that judge to commit the thief to an ETERNITY of punishment? Because that is what God is about, according to many. Maybe not you - fine... but was I speaking to your beliefs then? Hmmm... probably not. So again, WHY REPLY IN THE FIRST PLACE? It is either because you completely misunderstood my point, or because you do, on some level, sympathize with these types of beliefs. So... to get right to the heart of the matter, do you support God's judgment and sentencing, even if it involves an eternity of torment? Just admit it if you do, or stop replying to me... because if you don't, my comments don't even apply to you, and your beliefs are completely moot as replies to my points. It's not that hard to understand, I don't think. Let me know if you feel otherwise.


Cherry picking the verses that make God appear benevolent. That is all this is. You should know better than to think this will work. For shame.


You're probably right. Though from what I have seen so far, and having had extensive experience speaking and interacting with people who have expressed many of the same things you have, I am pretty confident that I will continue to remain wholly unimpressed by the scope of your beliefs.

Baha'is believe that hell is being far from God. That is all that hell is. The purpose of all people's existence is to be close to God. We believe in the Bible but the Bible is misunderstood. For most people they will not spend an eternity in hell.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

OOOhhh... NOW I understand.

Can't say I blame you.

I may very well be to blame... but there would still remain little I can do about it. My reaction to talk of supernatural, unknowable, esoteric, confounding things is nearly involuntary by this point.

Oh... and you still refrained from admitting whether you would support God's decisions to torment someone/something for ETERNITY, if that were His way. I understand why... it's just one of those little interactions that keeps my "involuntary bias reflex" in peak condition.

 

[Kenny]

I may very well be to blame... but there would still remain little I can do about it. My reaction to talk of supernatural, unknowable, esoteric, confounding things is nearly involuntary by this point.

Oh... and you still refrained from admitting whether you would support God's decisions to torment someone/something for ETERNITY, if that were His way. I understand why... it's just one of those little interactions that keeps my "involuntary bias reflex" in peak condition.

LOL... no... I have no problem with what I said and I will reiterate and add to be more clear if I wasn't clear enough.

1. If ANYONE is tormented, it isn't God's fault, it is man's fault. It isn't the judges fault or the prison guards fault that a man is in jail, it is he who committed the faults fault.
2. God is a just God who judges righteously and will never declare the legal penalty for something beyond what is merritted for the infraction as should any judge remembering that
   it isn't God's fault, it is man's fault. It isn't the judges fault or the prison guards fault that someone is in jail, it is he who committed the faults fault.
3. God made Hades for Satan, not for man. If there is a place of torment and a man is there, It isn't God's fault, it is man's fault. It isn't the judges fault or the prison guards fault that a man is in jail, it is he who committed the faults fault.
4. God did all He could do for man for them not to suffer. He put the FULL punishment of Jesus Christ. Jesus WILLINGLY gave His life for mankind.
5. There are multiple interpretations to torment and hell (all withing different denominations) as I have previously said- but regardless of the interpretation, it isn't God's fault, it is man's. It isn't the judges fault or the prison guards fault that someone is in jail, it is he who committed the faults fault
   1. Some say there is no Hell and earth is the most suffering man will experience
   2. Some say that eventually the spirit of man is exterminated and therefore the tormenting is not eternal
   3. Some say that there is a purgatory where man will pay for what he did wrong and when it is done, they go to Heaven
   4. Some say it is eternal
   5. Regardless of which the above is correct, it is man's fault if there is ANY degree of suffering or torment as God did not make Hell for mankind. It isn't God's fault, it is man's fault. It isn't the judges fault or the prison guards fault that a man is in jail, it is he who committed the faults fault.

Hopefully I was now clear enough.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If ANYONE is tormented, it isn't God's fault, it is man's fault. It isn't the judges fault or the prison guards fault that a man is in jail, it is he who committed the faults fault.

And was I unclear then? Apparently so because I never said it was "God's fault" that there were crimes needing punished. I asked if the punishment of eternal suffering fits any crime you can think of. This has nothing to do with answering the question I posed - which can accept something as simple as "yes" or "no" in answer. Why are you trying to hide behind all of this obfuscation?

God is a just God who judges righteously and will never declare the legal penalty for something beyond what is merritted for the infraction as should any judge remembering that

From most of what I have heard, this is definitely not the case. Not nearly. And how am I to verify? Don't I have to rely on the "testimony" of His "witnesses"?

God made Hades for Satan, not for man. If there is a place of torment and a man is there, It isn't God's fault, it is man's fault. It isn't the judges fault or the prison guards fault that a man is in jail, it is he who committed the faults fault.

Was it the firstborn males' fault during the passover? Fair? Just? You just need to stop and fess up to the fact that you have no idea what motivates God. None. The reports of His actions are terrifying from a human perspective, and seem to be very loosely tied to justice. He very often targets people with punishment who have nothing to do with what made Him angry in the first place. He needs anger management is what He needs.

God did all He could do for man for them not to suffer. He put the FULL punishment of Jesus Christ. Jesus WILLINGLY gave His life for mankind.

And this says what about God making sure the punishment fits the crime? Again... pure obfuscation.

Some say there is no Hell and earth is the most suffering man will experience
Some say that eventually the spirit of man is exterminated and therefore the tormenting is not eternal
Some say that there is a purgatory where man will pay for what he did wrong and when it is done, they go to Heaven
Some say it is eternal

And you're simply okay with there being this many interpretations and people claiming to "speak for God" who also claim their version is "right"? This isn't at all troubling to you? If it is... then WHY CITE THIS? Make no mistake, inconsistency like this will only ever weaken your case. Which it is has here.

Regardless of which the above is correct, it is man's fault if there is ANY degree of suffering or torment as God did not make Hell for mankind. It isn't God's fault, it is man's fault. It isn't the judges fault or the prison guards fault that a man is in jail, it is he who committed the faults fault.

You keep saying this... but it has absolutely nothing to do with being sure the punishment fits the crime, and there are more than enough examples of God going overboard for me to ever put my trust in His judgment.

Hopefully I was now clear enough.

I'm still waiting for a simple "yes" or "no" from you. Here's the question again, in case you missed it (honestly, with the responses you have given, it very much seems like you have):

Would you support God's decisions to torment someone/something for ETERNITY, if that were His way?

 

[Astravalon]

As I said the torment is being separated from the One who is the source and provides love, beauty, and all that is good.

I find it impossible to be separated from an omnipresent entity.

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