The threat of eternal damnation is like gun control laws

[Kenny]

And if the judge instead said:

"If you rob a bank, I am going to put you into a torture chamber, inject you with drugs that will prolong your life indefinitely, and have you tortured for the rest of eternity."

How would you feel about that?

This also sounds more like a victim mentality

 

[ajay0]

The last I checked the intellect is 100% responsible. There are now some even in science that are recognising we have a serious narrative problem that science itself can't fix or be a replacement. So yes the old narrative is badly broken but if we don't start getting some religion about nature then extinction is coming.

Yeah, it is the conflict between the existential reality and the psychological reality that is causing much of the damage to nature as well as human suffering.

Jaggi Vasudev illustrates this eloquently in this article...

 

[David T]

Yeah, it is the conflict between the existential reality and the psychological reality that is causing much of the damage to nature as well as human suffering.

Jaggi Vasudev illustrates this eloquently in this article...

Yes. Religion is always first formed by experience and the term presence is as best as I can describe it. It then starts down the road intellectually developing a model, over time that model determines the experience. It's like we start with fire, it becomes lava, that turns to rock and finally we have strip malls!!! Intelligence and education play a huuuuge role in the construct of strip malls. I build them!!! I actually built a stripall on top of a 10,000 year old pheasant breeding ground in salt lake. At night I would venture into the rockies act as camp host to a campground totally empty all week. Whare was everyone? In the stripmall i built!!!

We prefer plastic to reality as a culture. So if you look around at religion, be sure you are not just preferring the big 5 store over the nordstroms rack. Plastic being replaced with plastic is still plastic!!! An no you don't need religion for that experience of presence and yes religion does hinder it today. Remember the church actually does have highly educated intelligent people in it. It does not stop it from being plastic it increases it. Creationism intelligent design!? All plastic nonsense. Ken ham has a science degree even. I can state reality nature alive or extinction,. We don't like that we want a solution we want plastic just like Ken hams noah ark building. There now you understand the noah story properly.you only get to choose reality or plastic that's it.

 

[Astravalon]

I think any god-concept wherein the deity's power is so limited that only
annihilation or endless torment are viable options for Him gives Him little to
no credit. Especially those god-concepts wherein that god is advertised as
not only a "savior", but a "savior" of the entire world.

-

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

That sounds more like a victim mentality...

How is that even applicable? For one... I don't even believe that God exists. But, if He did, and He's like everyone says He is, then what I wrote pretty much sums up His position. If He existed, we would have to accept it... whether we felt victimized or not... doesn't change the overall message His actions would convey. Not one bit.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

This also sounds more like a victim mentality

So, one should just be okie-dokie with an authority that decides to punish people FOREVER? Is that your position? Forget about me for a minute... I don't give one flying crap about my supposed "fate" by anyone's standards. How about every other person on Earth you care about - even if they screw up pretty bad. Make it one of your children. Is it "victim mentality" to want to rebel against an authority who would actively subdue and TORTURE your child for all of eternity? Well, is it? And here you sit, probably ready to go as far as to WORSHIP and THANK just such an authority. You can try and redirect and make me out to be a whiner and a complainer all you want... but you can't change the circumstances surrounding God and His chosen methods. He made those choices... and while we have no choice but to live with them, we certainly don't have to like it. If you think we do, please remember that that is very very very much your own opinion.

Oh, and again, in case it wasn't clear, I, myself, am pretty much 100% sure that God does not exist. Any doubt I had left has been beaten out of me by responses like yours to these real concerns that surround God's existence. So many believers proclaim themselves the messengers and witnesses for God... claim that He is guiding them to "save" people like me... and then the drivel that pours forth from their mouth belies that they are either liars about God backing them, or liars about God's benevolence, or liars about God's existence in the first place. People like you have been destroying my chances to be "faithful" (what a joke) from the very beginning. No joke, no lie, no exaggeration. So congratulations at your abject failure. May it serve you well in the "afterlilfe."

 

[Kenny]

For one... I don't even believe that God exists. But, if He did, and He's like everyone says He is,

I haven't said He is that way - why do you accept what others say?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I haven't said He is that way - why do you accept what others say?

Nice try... yet you rebuke me with accusations of "playing the victim", as if the proposed lot of eternal suffering were not something to find fault with. As if to find fault with it were to somehow be at fault yourself. That is what you implied... and that takes a level of acceptance, and even a desire to see those like me meet this terrible end... or at the very least, an indifference to the plight of those who may wind up punished for eternity. And who else is it that metes out this punishment, if not God? Are there not many assumptions made, even in replies as seemingly "simple" as yours? I believe there are.

One of my biggest pet peeves is a person who says one thing, allowing all the assumption and implication to pour through their words freely, and then, when called on it, backs out of it as fast as possible like a turtle retreating into its shell. That is how I see you. Not that you care... just know that I do.

 

[InChrist]

If he cared he would annihilate the soul. Eternal torment is not justice, no matter the crime it'd be inequitable. Nobody asks for or wants eternal torment and keeping them there aganst their will when you have the power to stop it makes you complicit. Either God is responsible for eternal torment or he won't allow it to happen.

By rejecting relationship with God people are asking for eternal torment. How would God not allow it to happen if being separated from His presence is in itself the eternal torment the scriptures refer to? He can't force anyone to be in His presence for eternity since such force would be contrary to a loving relationship which is His goal.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thank you for your hard work. That was interesting. There sure is a lot to contemplate.

You're very welcome. Sorry if I overwhelmed you. I have a tendency to do that when I get excited about a given subject.

 

[Grandliseur]

You're very welcome. Sorry if I overwhelmed you. I have a tendency to do that when I get excited about a given subject.

I know my Bible. It seems you know your scriptures of your belief system well. It was enjoyable, not overwhelming. I just posted a video I found about Islam, you might enjoy that - perhaps.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I do not think the threat of eternal damnation is necessary. I don't think morality comes from the threat of eternal damnation. People are good people because they believe in the golden rule. People are good people because they have empathy for other people. People who hurt other people are psychopaths who have no empathy. Psychopaths are going to hurt people no matter what. The threat of eternal damnation is like gun control laws. Just like gun control laws do not stop criminals from using guns, the threat of eternal damnation does not prevent or cross the mind of a psychopath who has no empathy for the people they are about to hurt.

If the threat of eternal damnation did not exist at all things would not be much different than they are now. I think the threat of eternal damnation is a tool used to manipulate people who are afraid into buying more Bibles, paying tithes, or giving money to the Temple in order to supposedly gain God's favor.

An omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. It's not like it matters how many people go to Heaven or Hell to God. It's not like God will die if not enough people make it into Heaven. So what difference does going to Hell make? The idea of going to Hell exists just to allow people who have hate in their hearts feel a little better in that their desire for revenge will eventually be carried out by God.

The things is torturing and making someone suffer for all eternity has got to be the greatest possible cruel and unusual punishment. I can't imagine a God of love would be so cruel as to have eternal punishments for finite crimes. It's not like the people Hitler killed are not getting to experience eternal heavenly bliss. I think the idea of eternal suffering is born out of hate held dear by people who are petty and weak minded by not forgiving those who have sinned against them.

I choose to have faith in a God of love who would never be so cruel as to have eternal punishment.

No one believes that gun control laws will mean that criminals will never get their hands on guns. The idea is to make it as difficult as possible.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

By rejecting relationship with God people are asking for eternal torment. How would God not allow it to happen if being separated from His presence is in itself the eternal torment the scriptures refer to? He can't force anyone to be in His presence for eternity since such force would be contrary to a loving relationship which is His goal.

Can God end the conscious soul or not? If so, then ending eternal torment is the only just thing to do. Nobody is asking for it nor deserves it. It is by definition inequitable punishment. Eye for an eye that I take out and put back in eternally is not scriptural.

If not, then it's not a very powerful God.

 

[InChrist]

Can God end the conscious soul or not? If so, then ending eternal torment is the only just thing to do. Nobody is asking for it nor deserves it. It is by definition inequitable punishment. Eye for an eye that I take out and put back in eternally is not scriptural.

If not, then it's not a very powerful God.

God is powerful, but He cannot go against Himself, His character or His eternal plans. What other Being is powerful enough to create eternal beings in His own image? None other than God the Creator. Because He created beings and breathed into each of us life we exist forever. He cannot end someone's conscious life. As I said the torment is being separated from the One who is the source and provides love, beauty, and all that is good.

 

[Kenny]

Nice try... yet you rebuke me with accusations of "playing the victim",

WHOOOOA there horsey... You don't even believe in God so I wasn't accusing you of anything. I thought we were talking about principles. If anything,

as if the proposed lot of eternal suffering were not something to find fault with. As if to find fault with it were to somehow be at fault yourself. That is what you implied...

I hate suffering and do find fault with suffering even to the point of going to jails and give hope. But are you saiying that the people in jail are not at fault and its the judges fault for sending them there?

and that takes a level of acceptance, and even a desire to see those like me meet this terrible end

That is your interpretation. If I desired that, I would be promoting people to go there which I don't and I wouldn't preach Jesus so your premise is totally off.

... or at the very least, an indifference to the plight of those who may wind up punished for eternity.

Again... personal opinion. If I was indifferent, I wouldn't be giving to missions or sharing the message.

And who else is it that metes out this punishment, if not God?

Actually, the punishment was on Jesus Christ. It is our free will that makes the decision, not God. Have you really read and studied the Bible? I ask, because it is pretty clear that God did all He could to have people NOT suffer. Hell was actually the place created for Satan, not people.

Are there not many assumptions made, even in replies as seemingly "simple" as yours? I believe there are.

Well... let's check that out in a Christian perspective according to the narative given.

John 3:16 "For God so loved". OK... It appear that God cares.
"that He gave His only begotten son" Looks like He did something about it... seems to be a gift no matter what your past is
"That whosoever believeth in Him"... OK. Personal choice--not God's choice. Gifts are received by personal choice.
"Should not perish".. Looks like He doesn't want people to perish and gives the understanding that He has no desire for people to suffer.
"but have everlasting life". OK. This is our message. Caring, interested in people not suffering (whether the fire is everlasting, as some people believe; or temporary, as others believe; or what we experience now is the worst hell because there is not hell, as still others subscribe to), who cares. I still don't want people to persih or suffer

One of my biggest pet peeves is a person who says one thing, allowing all the assumption and implication to pour through their words freely, and then, when called on it, backs out of it as fast as possible like a turtle retreating into its shell. That is how I see you. Not that you care... just know that I do.

Therefore your conclussion here is wrong. You see, my friend, we haven't talked enough for you to make any determination of what I believe or subscribe to.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This also sounds more like a victim mentality

Nice question dodging.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I hate suffering and do find fault with suffering even to the point of going to jails and give hope. But are you saiying that the people in jail are not at fault and its the judges fault for sending them there?

This is not at all what I said. As much as you're pinning "misunderstanding" on me, you're doing a pretty bang-up job of it yourself. I was criticizing the "eternal" part of the punishment. Basically, that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Why else would I reply to your question about the judge with a question again asking if you thought it would be okay for that judge to commit the thief to an ETERNITY of punishment? Because that is what God is about, according to many. Maybe not you - fine... but was I speaking to your beliefs then? Hmmm... probably not. So again, WHY REPLY IN THE FIRST PLACE? It is either because you completely misunderstood my point, or because you do, on some level, sympathize with these types of beliefs. So... to get right to the heart of the matter, do you support God's judgment and sentencing, even if it involves an eternity of torment? Just admit it if you do, or stop replying to me... because if you don't, my comments don't even apply to you, and your beliefs are completely moot as replies to my points. It's not that hard to understand, I don't think. Let me know if you feel otherwise.

John 3:16 "For God so loved". OK... It appear that God cares.
"that He gave His only begotten son" Looks like He did something about it... seems to be a gift no matter what your past is
"That whosoever believeth in Him"... OK. Personal choice--not God's choice. Gifts are received by personal choice.
"Should not perish".. Looks like He doesn't want people to perish and gives the understanding that He has no desire for people to suffer.
"but have everlasting life". OK. This is our message. Caring, interested in people not suffering (whether the fire is everlasting, as some people believe; or temporary, as others believe; or what we experience now is the worst hell because there is not hell, as still others subscribe to), who cares. I still don't want people to persih or suffer

Cherry picking the verses that make God appear benevolent. That is all this is. You should know better than to think this will work. For shame.

You see, my friend, we haven't talked enough for you to make any determination of what I believe or subscribe to.

You're probably right. Though from what I have seen so far, and having had extensive experience speaking and interacting with people who have expressed many of the same things you have, I am pretty confident that I will continue to remain wholly unimpressed by the scope of your beliefs.

 

[sealchan]

I do not think the threat of eternal damnation is necessary. I don't think morality comes from the threat of eternal damnation. People are good people because they believe in the golden rule. People are good people because they have empathy for other people. People who hurt other people are psychopaths who have no empathy. Psychopaths are going to hurt people no matter what. The threat of eternal damnation is like gun control laws. Just like gun control laws do not stop criminals from using guns, the threat of eternal damnation does not prevent or cross the mind of a psychopath who has no empathy for the people they are about to hurt.

If the threat of eternal damnation did not exist at all things would not be much different than they are now. I think the threat of eternal damnation is a tool used to manipulate people who are afraid into buying more Bibles, paying tithes, or giving money to the Temple in order to supposedly gain God's favor.

An omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us. It's not like it matters how many people go to Heaven or Hell to God. It's not like God will die if not enough people make it into Heaven. So what difference does going to Hell make? The idea of going to Hell exists just to allow people who have hate in their hearts feel a little better in that their desire for revenge will eventually be carried out by God.

The things is torturing and making someone suffer for all eternity has got to be the greatest possible cruel and unusual punishment. I can't imagine a God of love would be so cruel as to have eternal punishments for finite crimes. It's not like the people Hitler killed are not getting to experience eternal heavenly bliss. I think the idea of eternal suffering is born out of hate held dear by people who are petty and weak minded by not forgiving those who have sinned against them.

I choose to have faith in a God of love who would never be so cruel as to have eternal punishment.

My way of looking at this is that such attitudes reflect a personal and cultural experience of abuse and such beliefs serve to persecute the abuser and uplift the abused. At some point the emphasis on this creates a kind of support for the co-dependency of the abuser and the abused.

Better would be to recognize, as you say, that humans can do good without fear of punishment. In fact, viewing the threat of punishment as a primary model for teaching is childish and wrong. It is bad parenting as well if relied on to near exclusion.

It probably serves best for a people who feel that life itself is a living hell and death the only possible remedy. For those who suffer death will be heaven, for those who cause suffering, death will be their perpetual torment. Abuser and abused.

 

[sealchan]

I've always wondered about that line of thinking.

If I tell my child "Don't play with fire or you will be burnt"... is that a threat or a statement of eventuality?

Although I will agree that morality doesn't come with the threat of eternal damnation.

Natural consequences are what we all need to be "trained up against". Punishment that does not aim for remediation and is out of all proportion to the crime only benefits the unforgiving victim...and because that victim is unforgiving, it condemns them as well.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It probably serves best for a people who feel that life itself is a living hell and death the only possible remedy. For those who suffer death will be heaven, for those who cause suffering, death will be their perpetual torment. Abuser and abused.

It also serves those who put the people in that position: "no need to rise up against your oppressors. If you stick it out, you'll come out ahead in the end, I promise. Be compliant and accept what's put upon you."