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The Smear Campaigns against the Occupy Wall Street Movement

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Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
And that's why you think you are bullet-proof! But it all depends just how bad the economy takes a dive. I'm within 7 years of retiring....assuming things are as they are now. What I really expect is that I will have to stay healthy because I foresee the whole fake currency system blowing up before I have a chance to collect my pensions and cash in retirement savings. I don't like surprises, so I'm just not going to assume that it is actually going to be there near the end of this decade!
We both are getting long in the tooth. :p. You have lived through recessions before. This should not be anything new to you then. If your worried about currencies, gold and silver is a safe haven. What we will have to deal with is out living our money. We should be so lucky. I'm not bullet proof, if the economy tanks, I will retire. The economy may dictate if I retire in style or not but I'm a survivor. I have cancer, I most likely will not have to worry about running out of money.
What is totally toxic with right wing ideologies is this notion that all success and all failure is personal. This selfish, greedy notion of everyone grabbing whatever they can is why we have no social cohesion any more. And a lot of what the Occupy movements are trying to do, is just to rebuild the sense of community that we had in most places 40 or 50 years ago.
More power to them as long as they get off their duff and quit crying and go out and find a job. They have too much time on their hands. :yes:
I haven't been out of a job in over 20 years, and a lot of people would have to lose their jobs first, before I would lose mine. My despair is mostly connected with feeling something equivalent to an endangered species heading towards extinction -- younger people coming up and learning skilled trades, do not have the same prospects to earn a decent living or have the job security that I have enjoyed most of my working life.
My kids are doing fine. One is in college, the other has a good job, house, wife and kids. He works his butt off and is a good father.
Same thing goes looking at the wide angle picture, at being part of the baby boom generation. We have surfed and rode the biggest wave ever produced in history! Sure, we started our years living under the threat of nuclear annihilation...which is still with us actually....but we sure had it good, when it came to enjoying the new technologies that came to us after WWII; the rapidly growing economy (except for a few years in the 70's); even good weather! Which even climate change deniers have to admit is getting scary in recent years. Younger generations are not going to have the same material prospects we've had. Well sure, some will. There's always a lottery winner to talk about, in the midst of a whole bunch of losers! But the majority have an increasingly depleted and dangerous world to look forward to.

Same goes for all of those developing nations who've bought into the American Dream and want their share of the pie. Right now, the environmental destruction, wars and failed states, and rising costs of natural resources are all going to short-circuit the attempts by developing nations in the Third World, to enjoy the life we've had.

And all of our future descendants have a life of deprivation to look forward to, since we have used up so much of this planet's renewable and non-renewable resources in such a short period of time.
If all you see is doom and gloom, that will most likely be your fate.

If you buck the trends, you might see that all you have to do in this day and time is be the next Mark Zuckerburg or create an I-phone app.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
What would rational restrictions on free speech and free assembly look like?

No blocking hospitals.
No blocking abortion clinics.
Disallowing protests to inhibit another individuals freedom to exercise their own economy.
Laws against slander and libel.
Not allowing protestors to occupy an individuals home residence.
Disallowing protests within a certain distance of a funeral.

The freedom of speech and assembly does not allow an absolute freedom to interfere with the lives of others based on how one wishes. Sometimes out of respect for the rights of others but sometimes out of practical necessity.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
No blocking hospitals.
No blocking abortion clinics.
Disallowing protests to inhibit another individuals freedom to exercise their own economy.
Laws against slander and libel.
Not allowing protestors to occupy an individuals home residence.
Disallowing protests within a certain distance of a funeral.

The freedom of speech and assembly does not allow an absolute freedom to interfere with the lives of others based on how one wishes. Sometimes out of respect for the rights of others but sometimes out of practical necessity.

That all sounds pretty reasonable. You could sum up the underlying principle as demonstrating in such a way as not to interfere with the civil and human rights of others not involved in the protest.

I think the Wall Street protests have stayed inside these boundaries.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
One further question on this comment: What do you think would have happened in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Syria if the protesters had just gathered for a day or two and then gone home?

What happened when people around the world took to the streets by the millions to protest the Iraq war for one day and then went home?

Freedom of speech is not the freedom to overthrow a country. I will not do the face palm again. ;)

If I applied for a permit and had a rally, I could then apply for another permit next month and have an even bigger and longer rally. You have to share space, but you could continue to have bigger and bigger rallies each time.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Freedom of speech is not the freedom to overthrow a country. I will not do the face palm again. ;)

If I applied for a permit and had a rally, I could then apply for another permit next month and have an even bigger and longer rally. You have to share space, but you could continue to have bigger and bigger rallies each time.

OK, but why? Is the basic argument that there's a big line-up of other rallies that need to use the exact same public space that is being used by the OWS and OWS solidarity protests?

I am of the opinion that the state must have very good reasons for abridging the constitutional and civil rights of citizens. I'm not sure imposing a time limit on rallies just in case somebody else might want to have a rally in exactly the same spot passes that test, but I'm all ears. :)
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
That all sounds pretty reasonable. You could sum up the underlying principle as demonstrating in such a way as not to interfere with the civil and human rights of others not involved in the protest.

I think the Wall Street protests have stayed inside these boundaries.

I think they have as well.

edit: But to tie this in to the OP, if the case was made that protestors were the victims of violent crimes and that the mass of the people were refusing to cooperate with the law than that could be an argument for the police to disperse the protestors. I don't know if this is actually the case or not in any of the occupy movements. I'm just saying the argument is there.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
I think they have as well.

Good for them. :) I think they've been quite clever. They are attempting to follow the method of peaceful civil disobedience in the tradition of Ghandi, and I think they've been very good.

Unfortunately this method requires that you take a brutal beating at the hands of police without defending yourself or lashing out. It takes real backbone to last as long as they have without giving the corporate networks and the state any material with which to enhance their alternative narrative.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Best get your congressperson to propose a constitutional amendment, then.
Nope, The Governor could call out the National Guard and we could have Ohio State all over again.

Freedom of speech has to be lawful. I cannot yell "Fire" in a crowded building unless there actually is a fire.

You can't incite riots, but the occupy crowd was doing just that.

You have a right to a peaceful assembly not chaos in the streets and anarchy.

If we actually had the rights you think we do, there would be no buildings standing in Washington. :no:
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I think the protestors aren't as bad as they are generally being painted by the media, but, on the other hand, their protests are neither coherently defined, nor consistent. Without a specific, well-defined message, leadership, nor the ability to garner support from the population at large for your cause, no protest movement will accomplish very much. Various media portrayals aside, this movement has already become nothing more than static in the background. I don't think the general population feels much connection with these protesters, and I don't think it's all due to media bias.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Nope, The Governor could call out the National Guard and we could have Ohio State all over again.

Freedom of speech has to be lawful. I cannot yell "Fire" in a crowded building unless there actually is a fire.

You can't incite riots, but the occupy crowd was doing just that.

You have a right to a peaceful assembly not chaos in the streets and anarchy.

If we actually had the rights you think we do, there would be no buildings standing in Washington. :no:

Source please for the factual claim that OWS is inciting riots.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I think the protestors aren't as bad as they are generally being painted by the media, but, on the other hand, their protests are neither coherently defined, nor consistent. Without a specific, well-defined message, leadership, nor the ability to garner support from the population at large for your cause, no protest movement will accomplish very much. Various media portrayals aside, this movement has already become nothing more than static in the background. I don't think the general population feels much connection with these protesters, and I don't think it's all due to media bias.

It's partly because the police brutality has not yet been severe enough and the imagery of it widespread enough to shock the public into looking for an alternative explanation than the official narrative. The police have started beating up journalists and restricting their freedom of movement, interfering with their ability to obtain images of the evictions. It's only a matter of time before the tone of the coverage begins to sound more sympathetic - if there's one thing journalists hate more than anything, it's being kicked off the team.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
It's partly because the police brutality has not yet been severe enough and the imagery of it widespread enough to shock the public into looking for an alternative explanation than the official narrative. The police have started beating up journalists and restricting their freedom of movement, interfering with their ability to obtain images of the evictions. It's only a matter of time before the tone of the coverage begins to sound more sympathetic - if there's one thing journalists hate more than anything, it's being kicked off the team.

Yeah, I don't really see that as very relevant to whether this particular movement gains any more support or not. Various protests since the 90's have had plenty of exposure of cops beating the crap out of people. American society doesn't really respond to that any more.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Yeah, I don't really see that as very relevant to whether this particular movement gains any more support or not. Various protests since the 90's have had plenty of exposure of cops beating the crap out of people. American society doesn't really respond to that any more.

Good point. Moreover, they seem to identify more with the police than the victims of police brutality.

Bloody authoritarians. :slap:
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Good point. Moreover, they seem to identify more with the police than the victims of police brutality.

Bloody authoritarians. :slap:

I don't think that's even it. It's hard to get any type of movement going in the US, because, overall, Americans are 1) disconnected from people and society around them, and 2) satisfied enough that they have no personal impetus to rock the boat.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I think the protestors aren't as bad as they are generally being painted by the media, but, on the other hand, their protests are neither coherently defined, nor consistent. Without a specific, well-defined message, leadership, nor the ability to garner support from the population at large for your cause, no protest movement will accomplish very much. Various media portrayals aside, this movement has already become nothing more than static in the background. I don't think the general population feels much connection with these protesters, and I don't think it's all due to media bias.
That is almost exactly my sentiments, Kilgore. My bridge partner was raging on about how magnificent the #occupy "movement" was, that they were the speaking for the 99% and I corrected her and said something like, "Nope. They have hijacked a term and are anything but representative of the true 99%." Unsurprisingly, she thought I was been rude for saying so. Given that Muriel is just "left of Joseph Stalin" in her political beliefs, that does not bode well for the #occupy <whatever> dwindling crowd.

My guess is that the ultra left has shown its hand and we have begun to see that they have nothing in that hand - and as a result - will find their ideas simply ignored from now on. Well, one can hope, I suppose.
 
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