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Featured The shortcoming of German churches and cathedrals.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jonathan Bailey, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    The lack of impressive floors in the buildings for the most part!

    They often look like plain dull worn-out old concrete slabs in otherwise nice buildings with beautiful pipe organs. Most other grand churches in other countries have beautiful gleaming floors nice patterns with checkerboard squares or floral motifs. Look at the lovely floors at Notre Dame Paris, St. John the Divine in New York, the St. Peter's Basilica in Rome and the Westminster Abbey in London.

    Why were the floors skimped on in most large German churches?

    This is a shame. I knew a man in the 1980's who was German immigrant and a master at building the loveliest tongue-and-groove hardwood floors. Nice churches do need lovely tile floors of marble or ceramic.

    One exception is the St. Stephen's Cathedral in Passau, Germany. This floor does appear to be complete with tile and the imported Italian architects and interior designers of this ostentatious Baroque church made sure of it, no doubt. The barbaric Germans, however, seem to have neglected the floor over the years as it appears worn, dirty or in need of a good wax job. The floor of any building interior is what I first notice and what makes or breaks the first impression.

    passau germany cathedral floor - Google Search:
     
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  2. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Well , the floor at Notre Dame is actually kind of gritty at the moment.
     
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  3. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    It was by watching the CNN news coverage of Notre Dame this week that got my mind on great churches. On televisions, the impressive checkered floor was mentioned a number of times.
     
  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    You need a german attitude, or to have been been there or lived there for some time to understand the longstanding like of utilitarian architecture like this

    koln-cathedral.jpg

    495fe9973677319316c9b5050008fb53.jpg

    Germany-Cologne-Cathedral-Interior2.gif
     
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  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Wasn't WW2 a little hard on such buildings?
     
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  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Barbaric Germans? Really? Have you seen any of the cathedrals of Europe?

    Early on churches had no pews.
     
  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Didnt do them much good.
     
  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Are you a fan of Slaughterhouse 5, perchance?
     
  9. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    I was stationed in Nuremberg/Furth with the Army for two years in the early/mid 1990's. There was an impressive old castle in the old part of town. I was not too impressed with the interior of one church or cathedral there: can't recall the name. I've doing a lot of browsing on the web of German churches and cathedrals only because I was stationed there and I am a devout fan of Bach music and other Baroque music. What I've learned is the northern part of Germany is Protestant while the southern half approaching Bavaria and the Alps is mostly Catholic. Furth is primarily Catholic. My impression of the Germans while stationed is that they are a vile people often with strong body odor and bad grooming habits. The smell of urine in the streets is not uncommon there. They also let in a lot of vile foreigners as from Turkey I've been told. There were a lot of dark people there that looked Semitic or Assyrian, Arab-like.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It occurs to me that God would be less concerned with the floor and more concerned with the calibre of the people who walk on it.
     
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  11. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    I'm thankful that American cathedrals likely have a complete finished floor and usually a nice pipe organ.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What is the purpose of a "complete finished floor" in a building that serves Christian division? (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    Did Jesus tell his disciples to build cathedrals with nice floors?

    Do you understand that the original meaning of the word "church" was the people who congregated together, often in very modest surroundings, to learn about God and to praise him for all he has done....not in a mindless ritualistic fashion in ridiculously ornate buildings, but in places that reflect great respect for Christ's teachings, his non-materialistic lifestyle and his emphasis on the truth amid those who taught falsehood.

    What is Christianity in your view? What are the important teachings of Jesus? Do they have anything to do with a building?
     
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  13. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    Apparently some Christians place great importance in their buildings. Even a humble or modest church should be at least clean and presentable and I've seen many such churches in America. I've seen one simple small Baptist church with a plain white exterior that oddly had stained glass windows.
    They had images of the Holy Bible and the Cross in the windows but not images of people as is common in Catholic churches or protestant churches in Europe that were Roman Catholic before the Reformation. There are Lutheran churches in Germany that were places of Catholic worship before the Reformation and the buildings still remained ornate with images of saints as Paul, Peter and Christopher and the Virgin Mary.

    The preacher at the small humble Baptist church said above in his sermon; God bless every church everywhere in the world whether a small church or a grand cathedral with a large pipe organ. This small Baptist church had an electric organ but also such fancy things as a grand piano and stained glass.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Do you ever wonder how "the church" came to be recognized by its buildings rather that the spiritual caliber of its leaders and congregations? And what about the attire of those who purport to be teachers and leaders of the various denominations in Christendom?

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Did Jesus or his apostles ever dress like this? What happened to the Christian modesty that Christ embodied? He shunned this kind of display in the Pharisees.

    On the night of his arrest, Judas had to identify Jesus with a kiss...why? Because he was dressed like every other Jew. No fancy garb, nothing to identify him as the Son of God except his teachings, his manner, and his ability to perform miracles.

    Did you know, that in the Catacombs, where the early Christians went underground to avoid persecution, there were no images found at all until around the 4th century? Both Jews and the first Christians avoided the use of images because of what was written in the Bible. In the 10 Commandments there was a specific law that stated NOT to MAKE images of anything that would be used in worship. So I believe the first image to appear there was a fish.
    [​IMG]

    There are various stories about the origin of the fish but you will see the Pope and other religious leaders wearing a miter.

    [​IMG]

    Which is strangely reminiscent of the one worn to symbolize the fish god Dagon...

    [​IMG]

    Jesus warned that Christianity would be corrupted by men, introducing traditions adopted from pagan sources and making Christianity into something other than what Christ began. This is the only Christianity that people know. I believe that we need to do our homework and delve into the origins of many things that are taught in today's 'Christian' churches.

    I'm afraid that God will NOT bless every church everywhere because "many" are going to actually be rejected by Christ at the judgment.

    He said of that time....in Matthew 7:21-23...
    "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!"

    These ones appear to be shocked at his words, enumerating all the things they did "in his name"....and yet what does he say to them? "I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!"

    "Never" means "not ever" so those self-proclaimed "Christians" are not Christians at all from Jesus' perspective....they are "Christians" only in their own estimations, but "workers of lawlessness" in his eyes.
    So don't run away with the idea that all "Christianity" is acceptable to Christ.....clearly there is a criteria....they have to be "doing the will of the Father". Do you know what that entails, and what it does not? We all should because our lives depend on it according to the Bible.
     
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  15. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    It sounds then as if Catholics might be doomed. I feel the architects, craftsmen and artists of fanciful churches feel that they may have been devoting their lifelong good works to please the eyes and the ears of God or at least that's what they believed they were doing.

    Does a beautiful cathedral and church organ made by the hands of the children he created in his own image not please the eyes and the ears of God?
     
    #15 Jonathan Bailey, Apr 19, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You have to ask that question in the context of how Jesus responded to the Pharisees of his day. They epitomized all that Jesus said was wrong with the Jewish religion back then, so if the churches are displaying the very same traits and Jesus foretold that the church would be corrupted by counterfeits planted by the devil....then you do the math. (Matthew 13:24-30; Matthew 13:36-42)

    Read the Bible and you will find that God is NOT driven by human emotion...he is driven by what most parents appreciate in their children....obedience. His justice is tempered with mercy, not sentiment.

    If your child was a murderer and a thief who lied his way through life and sponged off everyone who ever fell for his deceit.....would you appreciate it if he built a beautiful house with stolen goods, and learned to play really good music with stolen instruments?
     
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  17. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    No, I would not appreciate that.

    Must true Christians only pray and worship in modest places?

    Deeje, are you a Christian churchgoer? Is you customary place of worship God-approved?

    Does the Bible forbid stained glass windows and pipe organs? Some churches in America
    display the flag and I don't believe God would find that practice perverse.

    How does Jesus prescribe places of worship? I believe the word temple is used in the Bible a number of times.

    I know he hated it when business for profit was conducted in the temples.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    God doesn't either. If you consult history you will find torture and bloodshed used by the church in the name of Christ when Roman Catholicism was made the state religion of the Roman Empire. The Grand Inquisitor was responsible for so much cruelty, authorized by the church.

    Miracles are supposed to have happened with visions of the Virgin Mary and healing miracles too are supposed to have taken place in connection with Catholic "saints"......Sound familiar? (Matthew 7:21-23)

    I have come to appreciate that Christians do not need a building at all.....they are the church. They can meet in a forest or someone's garage....and that would be their church.

    As one of Jehovah's Witnesses and a former Anglican, my place of worship is a modest building devoid of any images (not even any crosses) and set up for Bible education, because we do not practice rituals nor do we have repetitive prayers, or alters, or clergy in distinctive clothing. We have set up our worship based on the first century model......so pretty much the opposite of what you would see in Christendom, who followed the lead of Catholicism in many ways.

    Decorations are not forbidden....but religious symbols used in worship were never used by the first Christians.

    Did you know that Jesus forbids us to be any part of the world? (John 17:16; Matthew 15:19-20) Why? Because, according to the Bible, this world is ruled by satan. (1 John 5:19)

    Flags are symbols of nations and people will pledge allegiance to their flag whilst taking up weapons to kill even their fellow Christians if their governments told them to....what does Jesus tell us to do?

    "Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you; that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous.” (Matthew 5:43-45)

    Did you know that saluting the flag is technically classified as an act of worship? Why would Christians want an idolatrous symbol in their house of worship?

    How do you' love your enemy' by killing him?

    Jesus was Jewish.....the Temple was the center of Jewish worship and once God abandoned the Jews as his people, (Matthew 23:37-39) he allowed their Temple to be destroyed...and it has never been rebuilt. God turned his attention to a new nation under Christ.....and with a new covenant. (Acts of the Apostles 15:14)

    Fashioning places of worship based on the Jewish Temple and its priesthood is not what what Christ established. The building where Christians meet is of secondary importance to the caliber of the people who gather there. If they are fed false religious ideas and pagan concepts dressed up as "Christianity" then the ornate nature of the building means nothing. It is then nothing but 'eye candy'. God wants us to worship in "spirit and truth". (John 4:23) If you don't teach the truth, then there is no Christianity.

    Christendom is celebrating Easter right now......but there is nothing "Christian" about Easter apart from the time of year it is celebrated. You will not find the word "Easter" in the Bible because it was a pagan celebration involving the fertility goddess Ostre (pronounced Easter) which according to WIKI.....

    [​IMG]

    "The goddess name Ēostre is therefore linguistically cognate with numerous other dawn goddesses attested among Indo-European language-speaking peoples. "

    You think the dawn Easter service is Christian? It is pagan to its bootstraps!

    Jesus said that the ones who turned God's House into a" den of thieves" were to be cast out. Not only were they making a profit, but extorting money from their own brothers....something that Jews were not supposed to do.

    We see many TV Evangelists dressed in Armani suits and living in the lap of luxury siphoning money off gullible people too lazy to leave their living rooms, talked into doing what takes no effort at all....to give them money. Any "Christian" living high off the hog on donated church money is nothing but a leach.

    Charities that make huge profits and have well paid administration staff are businesses, not charities at all. True charities are run totally by volunteers.

    Even those who serve as a ministers of their churches get paid for doing God's work. The apostle Paul said that these are worthy of their food and lodging but he set the example of working and earning his own money so as NOT to become a financial burden of the congregation he was serving.

    2 Thessalonians 3:7-10
    "For you yourselves know how you should imitate us, because we did not behave in a disorderly way among you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food free. On the contrary, by labor and toil we were working night and day so as not to impose an expensive burden on any one of you. 9 Not that we do not have authority, but we wanted to offer ourselves as an example for you to imitate. 10 In fact, when we were with you, we used to give you this order: “If anyone does not want to work, neither let him eat.”

    I don't think that Paul would have accepted a house and a car and the payment of all utilities at the expense of his fellow Christians. How many clergy can say the same?

    Sometimes it pays to get a better idea about what Christianity was like in the first century.....the churches have strayed a long way from the original model by adopting the ideas of flawed and power hungry humans.
     
    #18 Deeje, Apr 19, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
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  19. Jonathan Bailey

    Jonathan Bailey Active Member

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    Here is one more thing: the impressions of a Catholic who visited the Vatican in Rome. The reason for ornate churches.
    Why are Catholic Churches so ornate? Being Catholic in Rome! • Athena Study Abroad

    So I think harder and harder on what seems to be an apparent hypocrisy, when I realize, all of this art is not just for show, but as a celebration of what happens everyday in these buildings. Churches aren’t ornate and decorated for the same reason a wealthy person might decorate their home, but because the church is celebrating the miracle of transubstantiation! When a priest turns bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ a miracle is performed right before our eyes and because of that people are driven to create an earthly reflection of the divine beauty that is Jesus Christ.

    We will never be able to recreate the beauty of God, but we can sure try as a way of saying thank you and showing how much we value God’s grace. God sent his only son down to share in our humanity, and to die for our sins; there is no greater showing of love.

    So when you see a beautiful ornate church, don’t be critical thinking of the money or apparent hypocrisy that was needed to create something like that, just know that Catholics want to hold a beautiful celebration every time we go to mass and art is a form of expressing that.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Are you Catholic? Do you really believe that? Sounds like a bit of a sad justification to me.

    On the steps of the Vatican are poor souls who constantly ask for help from their 'Vicar'....supposedly Christ's representative on earth. How did Christ treat those who came to him for help? How many did he turn away? The head of the church is inside ignoring the plight of his own flock.

    How many turn up to Lourdes expecting a miracle, only to return home disappointed? Were any of Jesus' miracles failures? If its the same Holy Spirit at work, how come it has lost its power?

    The money spent on the gold inlaid palace in which these 'servants of God' reside would feed the Catholic poor of the world.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Can you put Christ here among such opulence when so many Catholic people in the world live in abject poverty? How is it justifiable?

    The Vatican art collection alone is estimated to be worth some $17 billion dollars! Would Jesus hold on to such valuable art treasures when he said that "treasure in heaven" is way more valuable? It is apparent to anyone who is not blind that Catholicism values its earthly treasures more than it values its people.

    What do you think?
     
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