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Featured The shortcoming of German churches and cathedrals.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jonathan Bailey, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    What did Jesus say about the Sadducees?

    The Seat of Moses is a reference to the authority to teach the law.

    Who did Jesus say did have the authority?

    Where were those Catholic Boarding Schools you mentioned? Do you know their names?
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I take it that you have never been to a Catholic Boarding School..
     
  3. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    @Deeje, you haven’t responded to the point I made where Christ and Paul accept non-scriptural Traditions in the New Testament.

    I’ve proposed it to you several times now... Remember..? But you never respond. It kind of blows your whole argument to pieces.

    Are you allowed to comment in uncharted territory..?
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The word tradition occurs only 14 times in the whole New Testament in the Old Testament not once.

    We find 8 references are from Jesus himself, all of which are derogatory of traditions.

    Not once does he insinuate they are useful or scriptural.

    Paul has 5 references, 2 of which are derogatory (Col.2:8; Gal.1:14). Peter also has one reference also derogatory 1 Pt.1:18. (the aimless conduct received by the tradition of the fathers).

    For Peter to be called the first Pope and does not uphold this practice does not help their position.

    The first time is is mentioned is by Jesus in Mt. 15:2-3 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders?

    For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

    He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?”

    Nowhere does Jesus teach there is a tradition of men and of God.
    He goes on to give an example of their tradition that went against Scripture. It was the written Scripture that was the authority for any other teaching.

    continued

    Traditions found in the Bible
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Every time the Pharisees the religious men brought up traditions as equal to the Scripture Jesus brought them to the word. This is why he called them the traditions of men because they did not come from God but by religious men who no longer intended to obey the word.
     
  6. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    @sooda, the Catholic Church does not place any tradition over the proper understanding of our divinely inspired scripture.

    ...Remember, the 99% thing from earlier where it was stated that the Church believes in 99% tradition and 1% scripture.? It was a blatant falsehood. We believe in 100% scripture and 100% Tradition, because Tradition does not conflict with scripture when properly understood.

    just like the 4 or 5 examples I gave earlier of Jesus and Paul acknowledging Traditions that did not conflict with Hebrew scripture.

    ...Same for same.
     
    #66 Landon Caeli, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  7. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    They were traditions of men because they were not revealed by Jesus or the Holy Spirit... Unlike the Catholic Deposit of Faith.
     
    #67 Landon Caeli, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Please don't take my lack of response as anything but having other things to attend to. I am a full time carer for a 95 year old mother.....I can't always respond straight away....I ask for your patience please.

    Remember that I asked if any of those unwritten "traditions" were the basis for doctrine? Show us where any doctrinal teaching of Christ is NOT written in the scriptures....that is the only basis for authentic doctrine.....the Catholic Church has many doctrines but none that I have seen are based on scripture, (though it appears that some are based on misinterpreted scripture.)

    Would you like to do a comparison? You present a Catholic doctrine and the basis for it and I will provide the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses with the scriptures on which they are solidly based.

    Can you do that? Lets see how much of what the Catholic Church teaches has anything to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ...? Here is a real chance to defend the teachings of your church.

    Do some research....those pics are just the result of a Google search.

    And that mindset will take you where, do you think?

    Who has caused a lot of the bloodshed in wars in the last century and the one we are in now? At the back of all political bloodshed you will find the endorsement of the Catholic Church for their nation's actions......who do you suppose supported Hitler?

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Jehovah's Witnesses do not join the military nor participate in any political activity. There is no blood on our hands.....can the Catholic Church or any of Christendom's churches say the same?

    We have no "splinter groups" because we all speak in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Those who leave us are in a quandary because once you learn the truth, you can't "unlearn" it. Since none of them can agree with each other, it makes forming a "splinter group" very difficult, so they just whine on the internet positing all manner of sob stories to placate themselves and to try to dissuade others from learning the truth about any of it.

    Jesus said something interesting though....

    John 15:18-21....
    "18 If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. Because you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world—therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘Servants are not greater than their master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. 21 But they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me"

    Jesus' disciples would be "hated by the world".....he said that is what happened to him, but not because he was doing evil deeds....he was exposing the Jewish leaders as hypocritical liars, inspired by the devil.....so as Christ's disciples, we should expect it.....for doing exactly the same thing. Its not exactly a popular message.

    Noah didn't have a popular message either, so no one listened to him. They felt sure that because no one took any notice of Noah's warning, that he must have been a crackpot who could confidently have been ignored.
    Could it be happening again? (Matthew 24:37-39)

     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Matthew 16:6; Matthew 16:12

    At that time the old covenant was still in force and the Pharisees occupied the seat of Moses as the ones responsible for teaching the Jewish people God's laws.

    Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus said...

    "Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them." (NASB)

    As long as they taught the Law of Moses, the people were to listen and observe....BUT they were not to imitate the actions and conduct of those men when they operated outside of that authority. They did not follow the Law of Moses themselves according to Jesus.

    We lived in the country so it was not unusual for students to attend boarding schools. I don't know that the victims ever mentioned anything but the fact that they were Catholic.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yep...you can count on anti-JW websites for all their up to date misinformation. :rolleyes:

    I had to have a real cackle at this one. :D Actually our time is better spent on spiritual pursuits; all Christians should feel that way because Jesus never recommended a higher education (none of his apostles were educated men) or to pursue riches. (Matthew 6:24) But the "warnings" about a University education have more to do with moral issues associated with University campus life. There is a lot of drinking and drug use as well as casual sex, so really not a fit place for Christian youths in our opinion. Like leaving a diabetic unattended in a candy store. Some have strong willpower but others do not. We feel its just a better moral decision not to go there.

    We need to earn a living....not a lifestyle. We value our family time so we are not always at work earning money for children who are basically workplace orphans. They have parents (and lots of toys,) but they never see them.

    We can do local TAFE or online courses if we need further education. A University education is not all its cracked up to be anyhow.....how many graduate with degrees and can't get a job in their chosen field? How many apply for lower jobs only to be told that they are overqualified? They end up tending bars or waiting tables. :oops:

    You really should try asking JW's for the answers instead of those who just want to find excuses to badmouth us.....we have nothing to hide. There are no sinister reasons for our choices and activities.
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Jesus didn't recommend the polio vaccine either.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Is that supposed to make sense? :confused:
     
  13. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    The basic flaw in your fundamentalist approach to the NT is not acknowledging that there was church with an order of worship long before the penning of the Gospels.
    The NT tells us the early Christians continued to attend the synagogue and gather for the 'breaking of the bread' on the first day of the week, Sunday, in the homes of the well to do Christians offered for the gathering.

    Both Mt and Lk give to her the honor of the mother of Jesus.

    And Mary said; "My soul glorifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed.


    Lk 1:46-56 the Magnificat of Mary

    In Catholic faith Mary, like all other descendants of Adam had to be redeemed through Christ. We honor her especially for two biblical reasons; She is the mother of Jesus who is Lord and God. According to Lk 1;26-38 she is the first one to hear the good news of Jesus' identity and to say, "Be it done to me according to your word', becoming the first disciple to meet Jesus' standard of hearing the word of God and doing it., (Lk8:21) We believe her special privileges were given by God, but these are related to the graces of discipleship given through Christ and in no way divinize her. We acknowledge that the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary are not found in the NT, they are held as consonant with the picture in Luke of Mary as the first one to believe and with the picture in John where she is especially honored as Jesus hang on the cross. We believe there is one mediator, Jesus.

    I don't recall you ever quoting non canonical gospels, why is that?

    And you should try the eastern form of meditation, reconcile your head with your heart. But you would have to let go of your preconceived ideas.

    Why is it that your not quoting Jn 1:1-18? which presents the Incarnation of Jesus the Christ, the Word made Flesh.
     
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  14. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    @Deeje, it has become clear to me that due to the very nature of this conversation, you need this win much, much more than me... If denegrating my religion is what your faith is about, then I won't stand in the way, and I give you my full permission to go ahead and do it. But only you...

    ...I won't likely offer that same generosity to others.
     
  15. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    ...But to answer your question, the scriptures *are* Catholic doctrine. So I'd offer the bible itself as the Catholic doctrine you can compare the teachings of Jesus to.

    ...Yes, the scriptures are ours too. :)
    Have a nice day.
     
    #75 Landon Caeli, Apr 23, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It was among the Jewish religious system that Christianity began. Jesus was a Jew....he was born and died a Jew. His ministry was concentrated on a Jewish audience because he said he was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". It wasn't until after Jesus' death that the disciples were no longer able to meet at Jewish places of worship, so they had to find other places to gather...often in the homes of fellow believers.

    The apostles continued what Jesus began, but never did they consider the building in which they met as the church. The people were the church and they were to gather together as Paul said...

    Hebrews 10:24-25....
    "24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."

    The "day" was the return of Christ, and the time of judgment, which we see as being in our time.

    "As a literal meal, love feasts became subject to various abuses by those who did not have the proper spiritual outlook. Since they were not commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ or by his apostles but were only a custom, they were later discontinued. Jude’s words indicate that some associated on these occasions with bad motives: “These are the rocks hidden below water in your love feasts while they feast with you, shepherds that feed themselves without fear.” (Jude 12) Peter indicates the infiltration of evildoers and those teaching false doctrine among true Christians, saying: “They consider luxurious living in the daytime a pleasure. They are spots and blemishes, indulging with unrestrained delight in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you.” (2Pe 2:13) While Christians up to and including the present time have continued to have pleasurable fellowship and have helped one another materially as far as it is within their power, there is no basis for the revival of love feasts as a custom in the Christian congregation.—Jas 1:27; 2:15."

    Love Feasts — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    For the whole time I was growing up in the Anglican Church I believed that Sunday was the sabbath....it never was, but the pagan Romans held their holy day to honor the sun on the day named in his honor.
    Saturday is the Jewish Sabbath but God never commanded the Sabbath to be observed by Christians anyway.
    It only applied to Jews.

    And there is no doubt that Mary was blessed to be the mother of Jesus....but she was never going to be the "Mother of God".....what a ridiculous concept! Can God have a mother?

    Do you realize that Nimrod's mother Semiramis was the first to be given that title? When her son died, she placed him among the gods and in turn took the title "Mother of God".

    [​IMG]

    Mother goddess worship was rife after Nimrod's false religious beliefs spread abroad following the flood of Noah's time....and the titles associated with the ancient Mother goddesses were all transferred to Mary. "Queen of Heaven", "Our Lady of....whatever", Mother of God", "Blessed Virgin"...etc. the list is long.

    If Mary is a Queen, then who crowned her? Who gave her titles that originally belonged to foreign goddesses?
    And why?
     

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  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Can you give me a scripture where Jesus ever claimed to be God? Just one will do....from the mouth of the Christ himself....who did Jesus tell us to worship? (Luke 4:8) Who did Jesus say he was? (John 10: 31-36)

    And yet many Catholics idolize Mary. Any wonder when they see this....

    [​IMG]

    In the 10 Commandments is God's explicit instruction NOT to "make" images of "anything".....

    Exodus 20:4-5....(Douay)
    "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth"
    5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them...."

    Leviticus 4:16...
    "Lest perhaps being deceived you might make you a graven similitude, or image of male or female..."


    How is the Catholic Church obedient to this command? How can you say that Mary is not adored? That no one bows before her image?

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This from a Catholic website....

    "The Bible calls her by her name, "Mary," and by her title "mother" while the passage calls Jesus by the title "child," which puts him in relation to her at the very moment the Magi worshipped him (as God). The Bible was trying to teach us who Mary is in relation to Jesus (God). This appears to be confirmed when Elizabeth said "Who am I that the mother of my Lord would come to me?" (Lk 1:43). Catholics think the title "Mother of God" is very Biblical."

    Except that the title "Mother of God" is not Biblical at all since Jesus never once claimed to be Almighty God. Mary's cousin Elizabeth also knew through divine revelation who Mary would give birth to. (Luke 1:36; Luke 1:40-45) Like Sarah, she was carrying a divinely given child as well. Why is she not given special mention?

    "In a special way, she is mother of the incarnate God, who is fully God. Jesus didn't become divine some time later in life. He was always God, and Mary gave birth to him as such. The Magi kneeled down and worshiped Jesus, while Mary, his mother, was holding God in her arms. Today, Catholics don't have a problem kneeling in Mary's presence either. She is as much with Jesus today, as she was on that day when she held him, while the Magi kneeled in her presence to worship of him. When we kneel in the presence of Mary it is because she is with her Son, Jesus."

    Do Catholics worship a pagan goddess in the disguise of Mary?

    Is any of that true? Jesus was born as a human through the vessel that God chose to be his earthly mother.

    The magi who came to bring gifts to the child that they had divined through the stars, were pagan astrologers who did not come to "worship" Jesus as God, because Yahweh was not their god. God revealed the birth of his son to Jewish shepherds who came to Bethlehem to see for themselves this wonderful event.

    The magi came to honor a child "born to be King of the Jews"....a custom that the devil played on to put Jesus' life in jeopardy. The star that guided the astrologers, led them first to Jerusalem and a jealous King. It was not sent by God, but by the devil in an attempt to have Jesus killed before he could even grow up. By the time the magi showed up, Jesus was about 2 years old, living in a house with his parents. The "star" that led the astrologers to Jesus stopped above the very house where Jesus was....so why did it first lead them to Herod?

    Because Jesus' siblings had not yet accepted him as the Christ, (no, Mary was not ever virgin...that is a trait of the mother goddesses) as firstborn, he gave the care of his mother over to the apostle John because her spiritual welfare was of primary importance to him. This was a son taking care of his mother, as any Jewish son would have.

    Mary was as sinful as any other human, so was Joseph who would raise the boy as his own. They made sin offerings at the Temple at the prescribed time. They offered two turtledoves....the offering of the poor. If the magi had been at the stable as many nativity scenes imply, then they had expensive gifts that could have been offered. It would have been cheating the system to offer the two small birds....something they never would have done.

    They are non-canonical....meaning that they are not recognized as part of the inspired scriptures. God chose the books that would make up his inspired word, not the church.

    There is no need to borrow ideas from pagan religions....Jesus never did, and Paul said we were not to fuse them with our worship because God saw them as spiritually "unclean". (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) That also makes Christmas and Easter things that God tells us to steer clear of.

    We reconcile our beliefs with scripture...that to us is more important.

    Actually it doesn't. If you read it in the Greek, you will see two distinct personages mentioned...both divine, but only one is Almighty God.

    John 1:1 states...
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made."


    In the Greek, there is no word for the one Almighty God of Israel because Greeks were polytheistic. Their gods all had names and were collectively just called "the gods". Since the Jews had stopped using the divine name and instead substituted titles like "Lord" and "God" there was no way to distinguish the one true God of Israel from any other god (or divine mighty one).

    They instead used the definite article "THE" (ho) so that John 1:1 reads....
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the) God, and the Word was a god." (or a divine mighty one.)

    Verse 14 says that it was "the Word" who became flesh, not "the God". Two separate beings.

    Verse 18 plainly says "No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

    Interesting that in Greek the word for God is "theos" so we have John 1:1 saying that the Word was "theos" and in verse 18 it says "Son". The correct rendering of verse 18 is...."the only begotten god (theos) who is in the bosom of the Father hath declared him". So why say "God" in the first verse but then change the same word to "Son" in verse 18? Can God be "begotten"?

    The trinity is a lie. Jesus is divine, but he is NOT God Almighty. No amount of fiddling with the words will make it so.

    This is why we need to study the Bible....you can trust it to explain itself.
     
    #78 Deeje, Apr 23, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Its not that I need to win anything Landon Caeli...its that I need the truth to be told.....to sincere Catholic people who have been hoodwinked by liars for centuries. It is no more denigrating your religion that Jesus was denigrating the Jewish faith. Christianity is my religion too. Don't you see that the truth will stand up against falsehood, as it must.

    What impact did Jesus have on the Jews of the first century? How many believed that he was the Messiah? How many believed the lies that the Jewish leaders told about him? The ones who hailed him as King on his triumphal entry into Jerusalem, later turned on him and supported their leaders in bringing about his torture and execution.

    Your generosity is noted, but I am aiming for your heart and your love of the truth.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Only one way to prove it.....lets compare. What have you got to lose?
     
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