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Featured The shortcoming of German churches and cathedrals.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jonathan Bailey, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Simply what Scripture states, for those who rely solely on written Scripture, Jesus was born a Jew, lived a Jew, died a Jew.
     
  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    The RCC makes no claim that all of its doctrine is found in Scripture. For what ever reason you've declared war on the Catholic Church, and the first rule of war is to know your enemy, and you do not.
     
  3. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?
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    There is no reason to abandon Tradition. In fact, the Bible itself teaches us that Jesus Christ himself and Paul followed Traditions that were not part of Hebrew scripture... Just like the Catholic Church.

    ...The fact that you even think Sola Scriptura is the only way of understanding God, in fact, goes against scripture. It’s a man-made belief that has no place in Christianity.

    Your motivations are just like that of the Sicarii who hated anyone who sympathized with The Roman Pagans. Jehovahs Witness is a modern day Sicarii sect, minus the murders, but the same mentality and hatred.
     
    #43 Landon Caeli, Apr 21, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  4. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?
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    That’s right. The Church has no desire to make such a claim, as that was not how Jesus was when he followed non-scriptural Traditions... And we follow Jesus as both the founder of our Church and our God. (Matthew 16:17-19)

    The Jehovahs Witnesses, with their outright hatred for “Roman Pagans” is the exact same spirit that destoyed the second temple.

    It is evil, unwelcoming and self destructive, and It will lead to spiritual death without repentance.

    913CCC3A-B40F-4CB2-8937-8A1D2238943E.jpeg
     
    #44 Landon Caeli, Apr 21, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  5. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Fundamentalism does not acknowledge that Tradition precedes the penning of the Gospels.
     
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  6. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?
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    And also, this other fact; Jesus and Paul Accepted Non-Biblical Oral and Written Traditions.

    A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    1) Jehovah's Witnesses (henceforth, JWs) rose to some prominence in the 1920s or earlier by railing against "organized religion". The Catholic Church offered a ready target. The Catholic Church is the face of "official" Christianity, with the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, being the recognized head.

    2) Because the Catholic Church is big and occasionally in the news, sometimes for good, and at other times for bad, JWs find the Catholic Church an attractive target.

    3) JWs claim to not be involved in politics (one of their interpretations of being no part of the world), and because the Vatican is by itself a State having ambassadors like regular countries do around the world, JWs find a perfect example of the mixture of religion and politics, hence, a fodder for good attack.

    4) Another motivation: the Catholic Church offers the largest pool of recruits for JW propaganda, masked behind "bible studies" and bible-based discussions. When JWs point to the ills of the Catholic Church, JWs also advertise their own brand of Christianity as the real article.

    JWs believe that they have the correct understanding of scripture, and that all other Christian denominations are fake, and that JWs are the one and only true religion. JWs teach that everyone not part of them will not survive Armageddon. A strange, hypocritical bunch, these JWs, if you knew them well enough.
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    What non-scriptural traditions did Jesus follow? Please share these traditions that Jesus followed from outside of the Hebrew scriptures....were any of them the basis for doctrine?

    What doctrines of the Catholic faith find no basis in scripture?....99% of them. No wonder that they proclaim themselves as the sole interpreters of scripture.

    The church gave itself authority to twist the scriptures to incorporate purely pagan beliefs such as the worship of a trinity of gods, (found in pagan religions long before "Christianity" adopted it) all rolled into one "head", so that they could not be accused of polytheism. How many pagan trinities are there...?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    Isn't it clear that this 'freak' is borrowed from unchristian sources? There is no trinity in the Bible.

    The adoration of Mary, who was no doubt a fine privileged woman chosen by God to be the mother of his son on earth, but who could never have been proclaimed as the "Mother of God" if it were not for the trinity turning the son of God into God himself. Mary holds more importance for Catholics than Jesus...and the Father is hardly ever mentioned unless one is addressing a priest. Yet Jesus said to "call no man your father (in a spiritual sense) on earth". (Matthew 23:8-10) He said that all were "brothers" in equal standing.....no hierarchy...no titles....no one more important than another....and definitely no Pope. The Pope is no more a successor to the apostles than Judas was. The office of Pontifex Maximus (Pontiff) was a pagan Roman title......nothing to do with a Jewish Christ.


    Immortality of the soul was adopted from paganism too. Neither the ancient Jews, nor the first Christians believed in an immortal part of man that departs the body at death to go somewhere else.....invisibly. This doctrine gave rise to hellfire, purgatory and limbo and the idea that one could get "prayed" out of purgatory for a price paid to the church. Indulgences were one of the main reasons for Luther nailing his 95 theses to the door of the Wittenberg church. He clearly saw the papal abuses in the Catholic Church and tried to do something about them. The Reformation took absolute power away from the Roman church and put the Bible back into the hands of the people....but it did not unite Christianity, it broke it up even more.

    Both Jews and Christians were to shun any sort of idolatry, yet the Catholic Church is full of images. The Law in the 10 Commandments said that no one was to "MAKE an image of anything" and use it in worship. Even the cross is an image.

    "There is no idolatry in Catholicism" I hear you say......?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    What do you call this? Even the Pope himself is idolized....yet you accuse those who follow the scriptures as idolizing them. o_O

    And what about the gargoyles on Roman Catholic cathedrals like Notre Dame....?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Do these look like something from God...or satan?

    It seems to me that everything that Jesus said NOT to do, the RCC did it.

    There are many more doctrines accepted in the Catholic Church that find no basis at all in the Bible.
    These are things Christ never taught. I believe that the first century was a window of opportunity in which Christ's teachings could be recorded for those who would follow "The Way" he started, but true to Jesus' prophesy, "weeds" of counterfeit Christianity soon started to grow under satan's influence, and as men in the church gained power, corruption soon followed.

    This is a matter of historical record. It isn't hatred...it is fact. What is sad is that Catholic people put their trust in men who have led them away from the teachings of Christ.....but how will they know if no one stands up and tells them the truth?
     
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Do you? Jesus was never the god of any church and he never sought worship. Jesus himself worshipped his God and Father. He referred to his Father as "the only true God" and said that we must worship him "alone". (John 17:3; Luke 4:5-8)

    Matthew 16:12-19 in context....

    "12 Then they [the apostles] understood that he had not told them to beware of the yeast of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, but others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered,You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”


    Simon Peter had the confirmation of God's spirit to identify Jesus, not as God, but as the Messiah sent by him. Jesus is called a "servant" and an "apostle" in the Bible.....he was a faithful servant of his God.

    When Jesus said to Peter..." I tell you, you are Peter [Petros], and on this rock [petra] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

    Jesus was not appointing Peter [Petros] as the head of the church...he was indicating in the two words that he used, that Christ himself was the "rock" [petra] upon which the church was built. Peter was given the keys to the Kingdom....but it was not something over which to boast or to wield power over others, but as a responsibility with great weight attached to it. Peter was given no more prominence than any of the other apostles, many of which made no contribution to scripture at all, yet all were held in equal esteem. Peter was told by Jesus to "feed his sheep"...not to "Lord it over them". (Luke 22:24-27)

    What are the "gates of hades" that will never prevail against the church? Most Catholic people wouldn't have a clue.

    I often wonder if Catholic people ever question what they are taught? It has been my personal experience that most Catholic people are taught to be Catholics....not Christians. They are often surprised at the vast difference.
     
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  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Most of what I know comes from Catholic people that I have interacted with over many decades. Should I have gone to anti-Catholic websites for my information? Do you know how many Catholic people can't tell the difference between a catechism and a Bible? Do you know how many of them don't want to know what the Bible says because they just like the rituals of the church that places no responsibility on them apart from repeating mindless words....or prayers by rote using a set of beads.....where will I find Jesus teaching such things? :shrug:
     
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Why would Roman Catholicism stand out as so obviously NOT the face of "official" Christianity to one who had investigated God's word? Nothing to do with the fact that its teachings originated in pagan Rome rather than Christ's teachings in the Bible? o_O Only those who studied the Bible would realize this and come to their own conclusions. "The Church" had the same attitude of 'untouchableness' that the Pharisees displayed in Jesus' day. Bible students comparing church doctrine with the Bible's teachings, saw at once the holes in Catholic doctrine, hidden from the flock behind a dead language and mindless ritual for centuries.

    By their outrageous doctrines and conduct, they made themselves targets. It doesn't matter how any human views them...it's how God views them that matters. We are told to "get out of Babylon the great" if we don't want to share in her sins and receive part of her plagues. If one cannot identify Babylon the great, then how will they know to remove themselves from her? (Revelation 18:4) "Babylon the great" encompasses any and all religions whose beliefs originate in ancient Babylon, rather than in the teachings of Jesus Christ..

    Now that is downright funny....whose side are you on? The perfect marriage of church and state when Jesus said that his disciples would be "no part of this world".....not rocket science is it? Who is always seen currying favor with world leaders? (James 4:4)

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Though he doesn't appear to be too happy meeting the last world leader for some reason......:oops:

    LOL....could be that Catholic people who are in search of the truth, don't find answers in Catholic teachings.
    When we call, they open up about their concerns and questions, and are happy to have their questions answered from the Bible. To be able to do that in the heart of Roman Catholic territory is a pleasure.

    Anyone is welcome to test us out on our beliefs to see if they gel with the Bible.....instead of just making ignorant assertions about them. As I recall, your own beliefs are a bit "out there" as well, and according to your many posts, you don't hold much store by the Bible either. Who are your "Christian" teachers BTW.....can we give them some scrutiny?

    Which you obviously don't....you come across as such an expert on all things biblical and yet you dismiss much of what the Bible teaches as if somehow you know what the truth is and others do not....now that is a little "pot calling the kettle black", don't you think? :rolleyes:
     
  12. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    By going door to door?

    As I stated, you do not know the Church. The Liturgy which you refer to as ritual revolves around two elements, the Word and the Eucharist. Responsibilities come from living out the Eucharist in ones daily life.
    And here is your 'mindless words' using beads, a meditation on the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, all quite biblical.

    Within this prayer is found the Our Father, the Annunciation, the Visitation, Birth of Jesus, the Presentation, the finding in the Temple, the Baptism of Jesus, wedding feast at Cana, proclamation of the Kingdom of God, the Transfiguration of Jesus, the institution of the Eucharist,
    the agony in the garden, the Scourging at the pilar, the Crowning of thorns, Carrying of the cross, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, Descent of the Holy Spirit.

    Where will I find Jesus in 'such things'?
     
    #52 pcarl, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  13. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The Catholic church was it until the 16 century. If not for the Catholic church, Christianity might have faded away or become the Nestorian church.

    I think the problem is YOURS... your need to trash Paul, Peter and the church.

    I think its great the Pope meets world leaders and I certainly understand why he would be uncomfortable meeting a profane pig like Trump.
     
  14. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?
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    a. The reference to “He shall be called a Nazarene” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was “spoken by the prophets” (Matt. 2:23). Therefore, this prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s word,” was passed down orally rather than through Scripture.

    b. In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down.

    c. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But rabbinic tradition does.

    d. “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses” (2 Tim. 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.

    This 99 percent figure is a made up lie by you. Thanks for making that known -that you make lies.

    More lies by you. None of those pictures depict a trinitarian god as you claim. Without any written scholarly evidence, your lies can be easily dismissed. What even are those statues, Deeje? Were they molded 50 years ago? Probably...

    But what’s worse about the Watchtower cult, as described by theological experts is that it’s adherents are expected to suppress their consciences to the Authority of the “Governing Body” of the watchtower.. The Governing body specifically warns members to "avoid independent thinking", claiming such thinking "was introduced by Satan the Devil" and those who openly disagree with official teachings are condemned as "apostates" and are considered "mentally diseased" by the Watchtower cult.

    Also Deeje, everyone knows Witnesses are coached with question / answer scenarios by their governing body, so that they don’t have to use their own consciences and risk thinking on their own when going door to door. This is a lot like ISIS militants, who train suicide bombers to reject their consciences, and embrace total submission, which is what Islam means.

    ...There is no doubt in my mind that this radical fundamentalism that you embrace is the same radical fundamentalism that has caused much bloodshed in the past with the Sicarii Zealots and the Islamic Hashishin. We should all consider ourselves lucky that your Governing Body of thought controllers have deemed violence as unnecessary. Hopefully no splinter groups of your cult change that in the future, but typically, that’s what happens.
     
    #54 Landon Caeli, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
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  15. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/watchtower-scandal.php

    Jehovah's Witnesses & University. Jehovah’s Witnesses are advised against pursuing a higher education as an improper use of time in these last days.

    Ongoing warnings against university result in Jehovah’s Witnesses having amongst the lowest average education and income levels of any religion in the United States.
     
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  16. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?
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    She knows only what her Governing Body tells her to think... Witnesss are forbidden to form their own independent consciences, as by doing so, she would face shunning or complete expulsion, especially if expressed on a public forum.

    See section: Authoritarianism and denial of free Speech. — Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia
     
    #56 Landon Caeli, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes, that is what I said. And through studying the Bible with them, they are usually appalled and angry at being lied to all their lives. Many had never even read the Bible for themselves, trusting their priests to teach them about Christ, but never being encouraged to find out for themselves what the Bible teaches. Just spoon fed tiny morsels at church....many still spiritually hungry when they leave.

    Many of the people I spoke to had been abused in Catholic boarding schools and other institutions in past decades. Not all reported sexual abuse, (though some did) but the physical abuse even by the nuns was often cruel and totally unchristian. This is not second hand information, but first hand experience from those who were raised in your church. I don't need to consult anti-Catholic sites to post the experiences of these Catholic people.....I have spoken to probably thousands of ordinary Catholics in my 46 years as a JW. I may well have spoken to more Catholic people face to face about their religion, than most Catholics. :)

    Was there liturgy in first century Christianity? Was there repetitive ritual that required nothing of Christ's followers but showing up at a building and listening to something that was repeated week after week and seen as some kind of religious duty that must be performed to avoid going to hell?

    Where will I find Mary being given the kind of prominence that Catholicism gives her, in the Bible? Where is Jesus giving his disciples instructions to pray to her as an intercessor or mediatrix? Where will I find Mary's immaculate conception, or her assumption to heaven?.......where?

    Matthew 6:6-13......
    "But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. “Pray then in this way:

    Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one."

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 6:6-13&version=NRSVCE

    Rosary beads are not mentioned, but these "aids" are seen in eastern religions, not Christianity....in fact prayers that are "empty phrases" apparently don't mean much to God....he would prefer a few humble words from your heart than empty phrases from your memory repeated in parrot fashion.

    Jesus did not say "pray this prayer"....he said "pray this way", which means that it was to be a model for our own prayers.

    Catholicism is a hard religion to defend Biblically......mostly because it departs from the Bible for the majority of its doctrines and practices....that means relying on men to form the bulk of what you believe. How trustworthy were these men when Jesus himself foretold a falling away from the faith, and the introduction of "weed-like" counterfeit Christianity?

    This is not the fault of Catholic people, but is the fault of the church as an institution....which was originally the result of a fusion between weakened apostate Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship, brought about by an astute Roman Emperor seeking to consolidate his divided empire. Creating a single "state religion" that catered equally to his pagan constituents as well as the Christians, because all their favorite festivals and beliefs were retained....they just changed the names.

    The grafting would have been easy to spot, as long as people had access to the Bible....but we know that the church made sure that no one could check it out for themselves because the church forbade anyone to even possess one under threat of being burned at the stake. This deliberate act of ensuring ignorance among the flock, set the stage for the church to introduce all manner of foreign doctrine adopted from paganism and given a "Christian" veneer....a very thin one.

    No one has to believe what I say.....but it's not hard to check things out these days. The information superhighway is open to all...no excuse for ignorance.....but our common enemy has his way of obscuring the truth....he likes to make the truth look like a lie and vice versa. Those whose hearts are open to the truth will find it.....but those who close their ears and their minds will become just like the Jews in Jesus' day......approving of the persecution and execution of the wrong person....led to believing the lies by satan's dupes. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15; John 8:44)

    We must be sure about our faith because according to the scriptures, our lives depend on 'knowing the only true God and the one he sent forth, Jesus Christ'. (John 17:3) If you have been led to believe that Jesus is God incarnate, then I don't believe that you know God and his son at all. :(
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    What Catholic Boarding schools are you speaking of? Here in the US or Ireland or Italy??? Where?
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    As I have said before, Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism.....by the time Jesus arrived on the scene in the first century, he didn't have a good thing to say about the teachings of the Pharisees or the Sadducees. But it was the only Jewish religion in existence at the time. Was it approved by God? (read Matthew 23)
    Now, when Jesus us due to make his second appearance as judge of all the earth, he will again have nothing good to say about the so-called "Christianity" he finds on the earth today. (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 7:21-23)

    You are free to trash whomever you wish....how many people trashed Jesus and his apostles....its nothing new. I think you need to read 1 Corinthians 10:12.....maybe Paul has some advice for those who are so certain of their departure from scripture.

    That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

    James 4:4....
    "Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. "

    Why?

    1 John 5:19...

    "We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one."

    Pretty straight forward that...."the whole world" doesn't exactly leave anyone out....so unless we separate ourselves from "the world" and its politics, aims, morals, goals and lifestyles, we will be roped into that mindset too.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Australia.....pick a country where there weren't abuses by the Catholic clergy probably for centuries. o_O

    Because of its dogma, abuses were sure to manifest. Living an unnatural life and being cloistered away from ordinary people, the church became a haven for social misfits, homosexuals and pedophiles. Access to other like minded people was a recipe for disaster. Many of those attracted to the priesthood were there for the wrong reason. Nowhere does Jesus tell people to live a monastic life.
     
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