The Messiah. Has he come? When will he come? Was it Jesus?

[truthofscripture]

.We can not have meanings that counter other scriptures and still consider our understanding as accurate.

1 Timothy 6:16 also describes Jesus in his current state as a King as one "who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see."

Is there a way people can see Jesus w/o using physical eyes? yes. Eyes of understanding. Everyone will be forced to acknowledge that he is now acting as a King that will displace all other kings/governments.

9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

 

[truthofscripture]

Revelation 1:7

"Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him."

You can clearly see the effects of the wind, but cannot see the wind. You can see the effects of electricity, but cannot see the electricity. You know the effects of thoughts, but cannot see the thoughts. You can see the evidence of God all around us, but cannot see God. And so on.

 

[truthofscripture]

Revelation 1:7

"Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him."

Up until the day of Jesus’ ascension it appears that the disciples still thought in terms of an earthly kingdom ruled by him, as is seen by their statement at Acts 1:6. By beginning his ascension in a visible way and allowing his disciples to witness the INITIAL PORTION of it, Jesus thus made obvious to them that his Kingdom was heavenly and that, different from David who “did not ascend to the heavens,” Jesus’ position from then onward would be at ‘God’s right hand,’ as Peter boldly testified on the day of Pentecost.—Ac 2:32-36.

 

[truthofscripture]

.We can not have meanings that counter other scriptures and still consider our understanding as accurate.

1 Timothy 6:16 also describes Jesus in his current state as a King as one "who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see."

Is there a way people can see Jesus w/o using physical eyes? yes. Eyes of understanding. Everyone will be forced to acknowledge that he is now acting as a King that will displace all other kings/governments.

2 Corinthians 4:3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

 

[Domenic]

He will remain invisible; afterward manifesting or showing Himself in judgments and various forms, so that ‘every eye shall see Him.

You seem to forget that the vast majority of Revelation is in figures of speech. Metaphors, similes and the like.

This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky.”—Acts 1:9-11.
He left obscured by clouds, unseen.

Okay: Jesus went up into the sky and became obscure. If that is true, his return should be: He came out of the sky, and became un-obscure.
No scripture says he will be invisible when he returns. JW's made that up after he did not return in 1914...They never said before 1914 the return would be invisible.
They are good at making up things after what they say does not happen. When the end did not come in 1975, they said, "Oh we didn't say that...the people did."
But lets assume 1914 was the date. How did they know it? Even Jesus said, "Only the Father knows."

 

[truthofscripture]

Okay: Jesus went up into the sky and became obscure. If that is true, his return should be: He came out of the sky, and became un-obscure.
No scripture says he will be invisible when he returns. JW's made that up after he did not return in 1914...They never said before 1914 the return would be invisible.
They are good at making up things after what they say does not happen. When the end did not come in 1975, they said, "Oh we didn't say that...the people did."
But lets assume 1914 was the date. How did they know it? Even Jesus said, "Only the Father knows."

As member Kolibri stated, no scripture can conflict with any other scripture and have the understanding we think it does. If it conflicts, it's not correctly understood. Scriptures DO say that Jesus will not be seen on Earth again visibly. Therefore the scripture that says that Jesus will return as he left DOES mean that he left invisibly and returned invisibly. No indication in the scriptures of anything else. You cannot pick and choose scriptures and claim what they mean, if you haven't ensured that what you claim isn't in conflict with any other scripture. Your claim DOES conflict with other scriptures. Your understanding comes from religious influences that are FALSE. It is for this and many other reasons that in Revelation to John it says to "flee from her" (false religions) unless you want to share in her plagues and punishments. Those religions teach things that conflict with what God, Jesus, and God's inspired word teach us. They also teach things different from every other religion. How can one assume their religion is truthful in light of these facts? If they ALL teach different things, it's not possible for even one of them to be teaching the truth. Yet, many, in fact MOST people cling to these falsehoods like it's a life preserver and they're in the middle of the ocean. They deceive and lie. Rember that Satan instituted religion when deceiving Eve, and religions have been helping Satan to deceive the entire inhabited Earth ever since. Stick to the scriptures only and you are more likely to learn the truth, than if you cling to false religion.

 

[Domenic]

Kolibri,

I do not often reject what JW’s teach. Most of their teaching is based on scripture. It is true some scriptures have been changed, (not by JW’s) and when the NWT was compiled, these changes were not understood by the WT. There are a few major points in their teaching I do reject. The leaders in their Brooklyn office do not replace Jesus. Jesus is still the only way to Jehovah. Those leaders have made many prophesies of end times, and not one has come true…that alone marks them as false. They also say only JW’s will be given life. That is not true. Those who believe Jesus is the son of God will be given a chance at life during the 1,000 year rule under Jesus. Those with a good heart, but have been deceived by Satan will also have a chance for life. When God warned people to get out of false religion, he did not say, “Except this one, and that one.” All religions will be destroyed by the Nations. If you question anything the WT says, chances are they will remove you as a member. Those who followed Jesus asked many questions. He never told them to take a hike. The main concern is the many prophesies they made, and none came true…that puts them in line for being false prophets. Jehovah would not have false prophets over his people. I know the people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses are good honest people serving God. I just can’t get my head around false prophets leading Gods sheep. I understand JW’s believe they are in the true religion, and the rest of us are dead ducks…it’s just not true.

 

[Domenic]

truthofscripture,

Are you a JW, and where did you learn the truth?

 

[Kolibri]

Kolibri,

I do not often reject what JW’s teach. Most of their teaching is based on scripture. It is true some scriptures have been changed, (not by JW’s) and when the NWT was compiled, these changes were not understood by the WT. There are a few major points in their teaching I do reject. The leaders in their Brooklyn office do not replace Jesus. Jesus is still the only way to Jehovah. Those leaders have made many prophesies of end times, and not one has come true…that alone marks them as false. They also say only JW’s will be given life. That is not true. Those who believe Jesus is the son of God will be given a chance at life during the 1,000 year rule under Jesus. Those with a good heart, but have been deceived by Satan will also have a chance for life. When God warned people to get out of false religion, he did not say, “Except this one, and that one.” All religions will be destroyed by the Nations. If you question anything the WT says, chances are they will remove you as a member. Those who followed Jesus asked many questions. He never told them to take a hike. The main concern is the many prophesies they made, and none came true…that puts them in line for being false prophets. Jehovah would not have false prophets over his people. I know the people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses are good honest people serving God. I just can’t get my head around false prophets leading Gods sheep. I understand JW’s believe they are in the true religion, and the rest of us are dead ducks…it’s just not true.

There are a few misunderstandings in your synopsis of what we believe.

We do not say that only Jehovah's Witnesses will be given life. We point to Jesus' own words to Martha that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. As long as a person does not die in a period of judgement marked for destruction and not simply death, and as long as they did not "sin against the holy spirit" by deliberate and undeceived resistance to the outworking of that spirit, they will have a 2nd chance to adjust to God's sovereignty. We do not stand as judges of who will survive Armageddon, we reasonably expect that some who only claim to be Jehovah's Witnesses will not survive. We provide people with a hope along with a warning. Survival will require tested loyalty on our individual parts to survive the pressures that we may face. Rahab of Jericho had specific instructions. Getting overly anxious and fleeing her home, which incidentally was in the walls that were otherwise falling to the ground, would have proved fatal. We, today, can not know how to apply Isaiah 26:20 if we are not 'feeding at Jehovah's table' when the time arrives. (Ps 22:25,26; 23:5) I can not imagine that if the end came next week, that the unbaptized students I study the Bible with will automatically miss out if 'God is making them grow.' (1 Cor 3:6,7)

Good heart, bad heart it does not matter. Jehovah wants all those that are redeemable to have a chance to change their hearts for the better in the resurrection. Only those that died while having "sinned in the same way that Adam" did or during specific judgement periods will not have a chance to reform themselves, with help, during the 1000 year reign of our Christ. (Ro 5:16)

They are good at making up things after what they say does not happen. When the end did not come in 1975, they said, "Oh we didn't say that...the people did."
But lets assume 1914 was the date. How did they know it? Even Jesus said, "Only the Father knows."

This was 1 or 2 years before my association with Jehovah's Witnesses. Even if I was there there is no guarantee that a 4-5 year old would remember what was going on. I have reviewed the literature that was in print at the time and have talked to those that were there. At most, in print, it was left in question form regarding 1975 because this chronologically marks man's existence for 6000 years. That was what was in print. A friend of mine, attended a convention in 1974 where now-apostate (and obviously then apostate but unproven yet) Raymond Franz announced that next year we will be on the other side. My friend strongly resisted this governing body member's declaration as totally inappropriate and unscriptural. He reproved anyone who would repeat Raymond Franz's comment as being legit because it "came" from "the governing body", reminding them that what was said was not based on scripture. My friend is living proof that "governing body" membership is not a "I win" card. Apostates are apostates, they can come from all levels of responsibility. I am personally convinced that 1975 is a case where Jehovah's loyal witnesses are getting a bad rep from the actions and influence of someone in a position of great responsibility that was not truly "of our sort." (1 John 2:19) I repeat, Raymond Franz's influence never successfully pushed for 1975 to become an official statement in print. At most, in one book, it came out in a question format. I know nothing of the other dates you bought up earlier. It simply has not been an interest of mine.

I do know that in 1942 we directly said that WWII would not culminate in Armageddon, but that a period of relative peace would open up allowing for increased opportunities to preach. So a school was developed mid-war to start to train missionaries. In 1942 we came to understand that we were living in the time of the wild beast that "was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss" during it's "is not" phase. (Re 17:8) This was an interesting piece of history I found that helped convince me that I was literally feeding at Jehovah's table.

 

[Domenic]

Kolibri,
Thank you for posting that. You can count time on me...I see there has been a great change.

 

[Pegg]

. When the end did not come in 1975, they said, "Oh we didn't say that...the people did."

thats actually true. I searched the literature myself to see if I could find where the society were teaching that 1975 would be the end and i couldnt find anything.

But lets assume 1914 was the date. How did they know it? Even Jesus said, "Only the Father knows."

1914 is calculable through scripture.

Jesus spoke of the 'appointed times of the nations' and he said when those 'times' come to an end, then he will be installed as King.

Those times were calcuated by a number of christians in the late 1800's using the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

So 1914 is the year that Christ was enthroned as King of Gods kingdom.

 

[Pegg]

Those leaders have made many prophesies of end times, and not one has come true…that alone marks them as false. The main concern is the many prophesies they made, and none came true…that puts them in line for being false prophets.

can you elaborate on each of them?

They also say only JW’s will be given life. That is not true. Those who believe Jesus is the son of God will be given a chance at life during the 1,000 year rule under Jesus. Those with a good heart, but have been deceived by Satan will also have a chance for life.

Good News brochure, printed by Watchtower bible and tract society
Lesson 6 Question 4 Who will return to life?

Many millions of people who are dead in the grave will return to life on earth. Even some who did not know God and who practiced bad things will be resurrected.—Read Luke23:43; Acts 24:15.
Resurrected ones will be able to learn the truth about God and to exercise faith in Jesus by obeying him. (Revelation 20:11-13) Those who return to life and do good things will be able to enjoy life forever on earth.—Read John 5:28, 29.​

 

[SpentaMaynu]

The Christians believe Jesus was the messiah, The Jews do not. Has the Messiah already come, or yet to come?

The word 'Messiah', to my knowledge, means 'Sent One' in Hebrew, so does 'Christ' in Greek. 'Jesus' means 'Savior'. Many of the religions expect some Higher Entity to come or to return. I see only adherents of the Abrahamic religions here (as well as atheists). It's kind off sad that the Dharmic religions said nothing as this is in the General Religious Debates section and they have many 'Sent Ones' - the Avatars of Vishnu (past and future), the fifth Buddha etc. Some Muslims also expect someone other than Jesus (forgetting His Name now). In my opinion a Sent One can come for various reasons - Jesus came to save the world from sin, Buddha came to give the world enlightenment. We can name many such Sent Ones, some called themselves as such and others the people decided they are. You choose what you want to believe. I believe many of them was Sent Ones and I believe some have been frauds. So yes I believe the Messiah came and that He/She will come again. For interest go check out the Wikipedia list of people who were seen to be divine - Mother Mary, Jesus, Buddha, Sai Baba, Ras Tafari (why is there no Rastafarians in this debate yet?).

All in all I enjoyed reading through this debate though I got tired of the Jehovah Witnesses so I skipped many of those parts...

Jesus affirmed he is the Messiah. (John 4:25,26)

I have a bit of a problem with an argument like this - normally when someone have to say he is something it is clear to everyone else that he isn't. This is not to say I have a problem with Jesus, just don't agree that the argument of Him affirming Himself to be Messiah is valid.

For the Christains and Muslims he came as Jesus (pbuh) , for Jews not yet .

Btw we the Muslims called the Christians in Arabic , المسيحين Al-Messiheen , which mean in English the Messiah-followers or the Messiahains for exemple :America , Americans ...etc

Okay, asking a question I feel Christians should have asked by now - if Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah and even call Christians by that name then what is the essence of Islam? I'm interested in hearing your viewpoint.

Can anyone answer this question. Does any Holy Bible Messiah person, rule over a Democracy or Theocracy

When I read the Bible it sounds like a Theocracy/Monarchy/Autocracy... I'm not fond of the last two and the first can mean absolutely anything.

Remember Jesus saying religions are false?

Having read through the Bible a few times - no don't remember, can you please enlighten me?

God would have no need to update scriptures, change his plans, change anything he gave to man, not any symbols he gives, or used

This debate is about whether you believe the Messiah came or will come or did not... The debate is not about the inspiration of Scriptures. But while we are on it now Scriptures were inspired and not forced by God. So while I agree with you that God do not need to update anything, man do have that need. How this will effect our relationship with or faith in God is for each of us to find out

King of ancient Salem and “priest of the Most High God,” Jehovah. (Ge 14:18, 22) He is the first priest mentioned in the Scriptures; he occupied that position sometime prior to 1933 B.C.E. Being the king of Salem, which means “Peace,” Melchizedek is identified by the apostle Paul as “King of Peace” and, on the basis of his name, as “King of Righteousness.” (Heb 7:1, 2)

Oh nice, almost sounds as if Jesus came to earth first as King Melchizedek and then later as Jesus Christ. Sounds like you're saying that Jesus is the reincarnation of Melchizedek - I kind of like that though I realize that's not what you meant.

Taking reality and saying it's a story is, to say the least, not entertaining

Lmao no this is really very much entertaining and funny. That is why I welcome the presence of atheists here but tend to skip the parts of the Jehovah Witnesses - you are tiring. Relax, make your point, acknowledge the points of others and smile every now and then. God won't fall off the throne just because someone made a joke.

 

[truthofscripture]

Kolibri,

I do not often reject what JW’s teach. Most of their teaching is based on scripture. It is true some scriptures have been changed, (not by JW’s) and when the NWT was compiled, these changes were not understood by the WT. There are a few major points in their teaching I do reject. The leaders in their Brooklyn office do not replace Jesus. Jesus is still the only way to Jehovah. Those leaders have made many prophesies of end times, and not one has come true…that alone marks them as false. They also say only JW’s will be given life. That is not true. Those who believe Jesus is the son of God will be given a chance at life during the 1,000 year rule under Jesus. Those with a good heart, but have been deceived by Satan will also have a chance for life. When God warned people to get out of false religion, he did not say, “Except this one, and that one.” All religions will be destroyed by the Nations. If you question anything the WT says, chances are they will remove you as a member. Those who followed Jesus asked many questions. He never told them to take a hike. The main concern is the many prophesies they made, and none came true…that puts them in line for being false prophets. Jehovah would not have false prophets over his people. I know the people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses are good honest people serving God. I just can’t get my head around false prophets leading Gods sheep. I understand JW’s believe they are in the true religion, and the rest of us are dead ducks…it’s just not true.

You misunderstand and mistake an understanding of scripture as a prophecy. God's witnesses don't prophecy ever, and never have. Publishing their current understanding, even though it may be incorrect, isn't publishing a false prophecy. They make no prophecies and never have, so they couldn't be false prophets. They believe SOLELY in the scriptures, and are constantly studying to refine their understanding. Jehovah does unfold certain things at certain times in history and that causes their understanding to improve as these things are revealed. The scriptures themselves discuss this. Take a look.

 

[Godobeyer]

Okay, asking a question I feel Christians should have asked by now - if Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah and even call Christians by that name then what is the essence of Islam? I'm interested in hearing your viewpoint.

good question .

you may have long answer, but i try to resume :

1- essence of Islam is submission to One Glory God (no partners or sons ..etc) and not alike human (eat,walk,die ) and no one could struggle with Him .

2- All humans are equal to him in value of humanity in this life. in view of religion it's up to Him in Judgement day .

3- recall for judgement day so then infinity eternal Heaven or eternal Hell ,when the disbelievers wish to return to tomb (death) .


btw :
Islam in Arabic means submission

 

[SpentaMaynu]

good question .

you may have long answer, but i try to resume :

1- essence of Islam is submission to One Glory God (no partners or sons ..etc) and not alike human (eat,walk,die ) and no one could struggle with Him .

2- All humans are equal to him in value of humanity in this life. in view of religion it's up to Him in Judgement day .

3- recall for judgement day so then infinity eternal Heaven or eternal Hell ,when the disbelievers wish to return to tomb (death) .


btw :
Islam in Arabic means submission

Okay I understand this, what then is or was the purpose of the Messiah according to Islam in your view?

 

[rosends]

The word 'Messiah', to my knowledge, means 'Sent One' in Hebrew.

In the Hebrew it means "one who has been anointed" and in reference to a king or priest (the Messiah will be a human king) it means anointed by by a particular oil (shemen hamishchah).

 

[Kolibri]

In the Hebrew it means "one who has been anointed" and in reference to a king or priest (the Messiah will be a human king) it means anointed by by a particular oil (shemen hamishchah).

Definitely means "anointed one". It is the word apostle that means "sent forth".

 

[Kenny]

.We can not have meanings that counter other scriptures and still consider our understanding as accurate.

1 Timothy 6:16 also describes Jesus in his current state as a King as one "who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see."

Is there a way people can see Jesus w/o using physical eyes? yes. Eyes of understanding. Everyone will be forced to acknowledge that he is now acting as a King that will displace all other kings/governments.

I don't sow how it contradicts. Certainly, with todays technology (satellite--live feeds) it is possible for everyone to see at the same time.

 

[SpentaMaynu]

In the Hebrew it means "one who has been anointed" and in reference to a king or priest (the Messiah will be a human king) it means anointed by by a particular oil (shemen hamishchah).

Definitely means "anointed one". It is the word apostle that means "sent forth".

My bad on this one, I apologize. I don't think it change what I was trying to say though