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The Messiah. Has he come? When will he come? Was it Jesus?

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
I went to Jehovah on what you posted #95. He knows I'm not smart enough to figure out which way to turn. He has given me an answer in you post #95.
I have stood for Jehovah all my life, and will always do so. I will not follow men if I do not agree with how they understand the scriptures. One thing I did learn from JW's..".How to identify a false religion." I was baptized as a JW in 1968. Most of my family, and congregation had been JW’s for 60+ years. The stories go way back. I have read printed material of the WT dating back to their start. Their history is not what they say it is. They claim they started as Bible Students…not true. They broke off from them. The Bible Students are still around, and as crazy as ever.
I left the WT 19 years ago. I was told about the changes they made because what they were doing was not in line with what the scriptures said. And yes, they always have a scape goat on the top who is removed…with bonus, and retirement money. It’s the same old story again.
They don’t have the right to make someone pass 60 questions before being baptized, nor do they have the right to tell anyone they are no longer a servant of Jehovah. I will never follow men. There is only one between humans and God, his name is Jesus. The WT has put men between man, and Jesus.
The big hook of the WT is they tell 99% truth. I still stand that all religions are false…I wish it was not so. Being alone serving God is not easy.
When I was a JW, I would have wrote what you wrote in post #95. I have learned more in the past 19 years than I did in the first 30. Ask yourself this question: "All the trees in the Bible are symbolic. Why is the tree in the Garden treated as a real tree?"
Quick question. Are you disfellowshiped? Or did you write a letter to be disassociated? or did you simply stop with no judicial hearing?

I ask so I know how to act according to my own conscience.

I was disfellowshipped for about 10 years once, but I personally had no issue with the arrangement from a doctrinal standpoint. And I longed for the time I could show love for God w/o hypocrisy. (Ro 12:9; 1 Cor 15:11-13)

Please understand, as much as I am happy to have been of some help to you in answering a prayer, that I will defer to the elders in your local congregation to handle any further questions if you are disfellowshipped or wrote a letter of disassociation.

I do not know the particulars of Raymond Franz's 'retirement.' However, if he was unable to provide for himself due to long term absence from anything more than a stipend, it only seems natural to me that his basic needs would have been provided for in a way that would not require further direct contact. But as I said this is a personal opinion, I do not know the particulars nor do I have an interest in finding out.
 
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Domenic

Active Member
Quick question. Are you disfellowshiped? Or did you write a letter to be disassociated? or did you simply stop with no judicial hearing?

I ask so I know how to act according to my own conscience.

I was disfellowshipped for about 10 years once, but I personally had no issue with the arrangement from a doctrinal standpoint. And I longed for the time I could show love for God w/o hypocrisy. (Ro 12:9; 1 Cor 15:11-13)

Please understand that, as much as I am happy to have been of some help to you in answering a prayer, that I will defer to the elders in your local congregation to handle any further questions if you are disfellowshipped or wrote a letter of disassociation.

I do not know the particulars of Raymond Franz's 'retirement.' However, if he was unable to provide for himself due to long term absence from anything more than a stipend, it only seems natural to me that his basic needs would have been provided for in a way that would not require further direct contact. But as I said this is a personal opinion, I do not know the particulars nor do I have an interest in finding out.

I have no further questions, nor need to talk to elders. I know all I need to about the WT. I stand to the mark...God is real. Jesus is real. The scriptures are Gods word.
All religions are false, and will be destroyed by the nations.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Let me just comment on the "144,000" thing.

The Hebrew numerical system at that time only went to 1000, so in order to go beyond that one would have to write it differently, such as twelve twelves times a thousand time over, or to put it in numbers, 12 X 12 X 1000. These numbers were symbolic whereas 12 was one of the numbers representing completion (others were 3, 7, and 40), and 1000 stood for numbers too many to count.

So, 144,000 can be read symbolically as "completion upon completion in numbers too great to count". I would suggest that this may be more logical than viewing 144,000 as being literal.

I agree, 12 does symbolize completeness from an organizational standpoint. The reason why Jehovah's Witnesses see 144,000 as a literal number is based on how it is contrasted with an unlimited number in Re 7:4-9.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Stephen saw Psalm 110:1. Verse 2 and Psalm 2:8 did not happen till 1914. We are still awaiting Psalm 2:9.
Ps 110:1 yes
vs 2 - He is doing that now
Ps 2:8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.'
He already asked an is in the process of seeing it completed. One can be a King and still be in process of taking the promised land. The land of Israel was theirs before they even put on step over the Jordan.


As far as support for 1914 goes, the ground work has been laid in this thread by the linking of the banded tree dream of Daniel 4 to the Davidic Kingdom. In King Nebuchadnezzar's case, it seems his "seven times" were likely 7 literal years. But not so for the Davidic kingship. I do not know what the Jews might use to calculate the 7 times, if they attempt to at all, but Revelation does give Christians a formula when it equates 3 1/2 times to 1,260 days. (Re 12:6,14). Seven times thus would be 2520 days. Using the Bible rule "a day for a year" (Nu 14:34, Eze 4:6), that becomes 2520 years. 2520 years after the banding of God's Kingdom about Oct 1, 607 B.C.E brings us to about Oct, 1914 C.E.
To many problems. First, the calendars have been changed and the Roman calendar was in error as far as the year of the birth of Jesus.

Second, In as much as the time of the Gentiles has not ended, it would be hard to make it 1914.

Last, there isn't any support to say that he wasn't King and Lord the moment he sat at the right hand. Paul understood that we "reign by one Christ Jesus" as well as Peter

1 Peter 3:
21 ... -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

The subjection to his Lordship happened when he sat at the right hand
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Let me just comment on the "144,000" thing.

The Hebrew numerical system at that time only went to 1000, so in order to go beyond that one would have to write it differently, such as twelve twelves times a thousand time over, or to put it in numbers, 12 X 12 X 1000. These numbers were symbolic whereas 12 was one of the numbers representing completion (others were 3, 7, and 40), and 1000 stood for numbers too many to count.

So, 144,000 can be read symbolically as "completion upon completion in numbers too great to count". I would suggest that this may be more logical than viewing 144,000 as being literal.
I noticed that it also has very specific tribes. Do you think that it would translate into that there would be an innumerable for each tribe? Or how you saw what the tribes meant if other than Jewish people?
 
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arthra

Baha'i
Domenic asked above:

"The Christians believe Jesus was the messiah, The Jews do not. Has the Messiah already come, or yet to come?"


Baha'is believe the prophecy of Christ's promised return has been fulfilled with the declaration of the Bab (Siyyid Ali Muhammad) in Shiraz, Iran on May 23rd 1844.

chmillhp.jpg


Thousands of Christians in the West believed Christ would return around 1844. They were called Millerites after William Miller a Baptist preacher preached that Christ would return in 1844.

At the same time as the Millierite movement was growing in the United States...a Muslim movement known today as Shaykhism was spreading in Persia... They believed that the promised Mehdi and Qa'im ("He would arise") would appear in the year 1260 AH... one thousand lunar years after the disappearance of the twelfth Imam. The year 1260 AH happened to correspond with the Gregorian calendar year of 1844.

While on pilgrimage to Mecca around November of 1844 the Bab announced publicly while leaning on the Kaaba in front of thousands of pilgrims that He had fulfilled the prophecy.

Meanwhile in the United States the Millerites waited on mountain tops waiting for the Lord to descend from the clouds...when this did not occur as they had believed they were disappointed and called 1844 "the year of the great disappointment"... Present Adventists believe Christ had deferred His judgement.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Ps 110:1 yes
vs 2 - He is doing that now
Ps 2:8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.'
He already asked an is in the process of seeing it completed. One can be a King and still be in process of taking the promised land. The land of Israel was theirs before they even put on step over the Jordan.



To many problems. First, the calendars have been changed and the Roman calendar was in error as far as the year of the birth of Jesus.

Second, In as much as the time of the Gentiles has not ended, it would be hard to make it 1914.

Last, there isn't any support to say that he wasn't King and Lord the moment he sat at the right hand. Paul understood that we "reign by one Christ Jesus" as well as Peter

1 Peter 3:
21 ... -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

The subjection to his Lordship happened when he sat at the right hand

Much of the confusion I reckon is due to how the KJV and some other Bible present the Greek word parousia in English. Out of the 24 times it appears in the Christian Greek Scriptures 22 times it is translated as "coming" instead of "presence". So many have got the idea that when Jesus returns, everything happens all at once. parousia is actually is a compound of pa-ra' (alongside) and ou-si'a (being). So when Jesus was asked about the conclusion of the system of things, or age, he was asked for a sign of when he would be alongside us again. (Mt 24:3) Then Jesus responds with a composite sign to watch for. It was in relating this sign, as recorded in Lu 21:24 that "the appointed times of the nations"/the "times of the Gentiles" are fulfilled. Would all the kings of the earth immediately be replaced? No. Referring back to the second psalm, the kings are told to show insight and accept correction and to honor the son before it is too late. (Ps 2:10-12) The Gentile times will end sometimes prior to the destruction of these kings. What matters is that God's Kingdom is no longer being trampled over. There is finally a King again sitting on Jehovah's throne. (1 Ch 29:23)

@KenS , you mentioned about the calender being different now then it was, and there being issues with our current calender and the birth of Jesus. This is true. However the prophecy in Daniel 4 does not deal with the birth of the Christ. So that objection can be set aside. As far as our calender is concerned, there are two fixed dates in Bible chronology. We know what dates they are according to the calender in use today. One is 539 B.C.E. when Cyrus II conquered Babylon. (The other is 29 C.E.- Lu 3:1-3)

A PIVOTAL DATE IN HISTORY

The date 539 B.C.E. when Cyrus II conquered Babylon is calculated using the testimony of:

Ancient historical sources and cuneiform tablets: Diodorus of Sicily (c. 80-20 B.C.E.) wrote that Cyrus became king of Persia in “the opening year of the Fifty-fifth Olympiad.” (Historical Library, Book IX, 21) That year was 560 B.C.E. The Greek historian Herodotus (c. 485-425 B.C.E.) stated that Cyrus was killed “after he had reigned twenty-nine years,” which would put his death during his 30th year, in 530 B.C.E. (Histories, Book I, Clio, 214) Cuneiform tablets show that Cyrus ruled Babylon for nine years before his death. Thus, nine years prior to his death in 530 B.C.E. takes us back to 539 B.C.E. as the year Cyrus conquered Babylon.

Confirmation by a cuneiform tablet: A Babylonian astronomical clay tablet (BM 33066) confirms the date of Cyrus’ death in 530 B.C.E. Though this tablet contains some errors regarding the astronomical positions, it contains the descriptions of two lunar eclipses that the tablet says occurred in the seventh year of Cambyses II, the son and successor of Cyrus. These are identified with lunar eclipses visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 B.C.E., and on January 10, 522 B.C.E., thus pointing to the spring of 523 B.C.E. as the beginning of Cambyses’ seventh year. That would make his first regnal year 529 B.C.E. So Cyrus’ last year would have been 530 B.C.E., making 539 B.C.E. his first year of ruling Babylon.
- When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed?—Part One — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Based off this date, 607 B.C.E can be determined as the year (according to our current calender) that Jerusalem was destroyed and the Kings of Judah stopped sitting on Jehovah's throne.
- When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed?—Part Two — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

(I will look up the 1 Peter 3:21,22 reference and come back to it later.)
 
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roger1440

I do stuff
Who says we don't have our act together? After all, look at all of us in Hollywood.

I’ll rephrase it. When the Jews collectively are holy as God is holy then they will be a light unto the world and the rest just falls into place. That’s pretty much the Gospels in a nut shell. The rest is just commentary.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
I’ll rephrase it. When the Jews collectively are holy as God is holy then they will be a light unto the world and the rest just falls into place. That’s pretty much the Gospels in a nut shell. The rest is just commentary.
When the Christian Greek scriptures speak of Israel, they refer to "spiritual Israel", not physical. The Jews, after the death of Jesus, invented a religion called Judaism. It's false as all religions are false according to the scriptures. And your comment about everyone in Hollywood, it hurts from laughing. As far as the "rest" of the scriptures being commentary, nothing could be further from the truth.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
What religion did the Jews have before the death of Jesus?
None. They were God's chosen nation living under the Law Covenant. The covenant was ended when the Christ died, and the Jews denied it then and deny it today. Well actually, a lot of them had joined pagans in worshiping false gods and images, so that was technically religion. But after the death of the Christ, they took a lot of the covenant they were used to and made a religion out of it.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
How is it the Jews do know anything about this? Can you quote from Jewish scripture that the death of Jesus puts an end to the covenant? I can't find it.
Yes, but I'm kinda busy now and don't really want to look it up. It's there in the Christian Greek scriptures. The covenant ended and Jesus, the night before he died, instituted the New Covenant, and created the Christian Congregation. Spiritual Israel. That congregation continues to this day.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Yes, but I'm kinda busy now and don't really want to look it up. It's there in the Christian Greek scriptures. The covenant ended and Jesus, the night before he died, instituted the New Covenant, and created the Christian Congregation. Spiritual Israel. That congregation continues to this day.
Christian Greek scriptures have nothing to do with Jews, neither does Hindu scripture nor Muslim or any other.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
Christian Greek scriptures have nothing to do with Jews, neither does Hindu scripture nor Muslim or any other.


1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made concerning all sorts of men, 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high positions, so that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with complete godly devotion and seriousness. 3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

Can you prove to me, and show me that proof, that God intended His inspired words to be limited in content and limited to certain people? No, you cannot.
 
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truthofscripture

Active Member
I never said it was. But I will say this, Jewish scripture is intended solely for Jews. That's a no brainer.
Actually you are incorrect.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

You give God the Almighty, Jehovah, WAY too little credit, and in doing so, you insult Him and make Him your enemy.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Actually you are incorrect.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

You give God the Almighty, Jehovah, WAY too little credit, and in doing so, you insult Him and make Him your enemy.
This may be news to you, 2 Timothy ain't Jewish scripture.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
This may be news to you, 2 Timothy ain't Jewish scripture.
The relevancy of that is zero my friend. The words at 2 Timothy is STILL inspired by God, the same one who inspired the Hebrew scriptures. I don't recall anywhere in the scriptures that God instructed one set of people to regard one part of His inspired word, and another set of people to regard another part. In thinking that is so is not very rational, and places little confidence in our Creator and Sovereign. Where would that thinking put us? According to God, not in a very good position.
 
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