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Featured The Lord's Prayer...What are we Praying For?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Evolved to me is Not to repeat the exact wording as per Matthew 6:9-13 and at Luke 11:2-4.
    This to me is the point of Matthew 6:7 A.
    So, Jesus provided a model or example prayer as a pattern, and Not to recite word for word over and over.
     
  2. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    okay, I was led by other Christians to think that all,things are known by him from the beginning, and nothing happens that is not his will. I have also been told that god is unknowable, that one cannot fathom his thinking or purpose. You evidently know something about god the rest of Christendom does not. where do you get this knowledge from and how can it be objectively verified
    What you are presenting is just one more set of opinions, of which there are thousands
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find it is the 'saints' or 'holy ones' of Daniel 7:18 who will be part of heavenly Jerusalem - Galatians 4:26.
    They have that first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.
    As for any un-repenting "wicked"/sinners they will be ' destroyed forever ' as per Psalms 92:7.
    This means the majority of mankind can be part of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised.
    - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11,29. The upright people will remain - Proverbs 2:21-22.
    There can Not be healing without sins forgiveness.
    Jesus' ransom paid that forgiveness price for sins - Matthew 20:28.
    So, in the resurrection, resurrected ones will start off with the opportunity for 'healing ' as per Revelation 22:2.
    That is when mankind on Earth can see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the 'healing' of earth's nations.
    This in fulfillment of God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of 'healing' because Jesus paid the price for sins.
    - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 18:18; 22:18.
    Then, under Christ's 1,000 year reign over Earth is when No pardoned one will say, "I am sick...." as per Isaiah 33:24.
    For at that time, even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
    People can have good lasting health as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I think the answer lies in 'led by other Christians' or 'led by so-called Christians'.
    Christendom is Christian mostly 'in name only'.
    Christendom (apostate Christianity) developed when the first century ended - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30.
    True, we do Not have the mind of God, but we do have the mind of Christ - 1 Corinthians 2:16; 1 Corinthians 3:23.
    To me, it is through the pages of the Bible that verifies.
    Throughout the Bible it has corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages, thus the Bible can be searched or researched by topic or subject arrangement thus putting the Bible in logical order for us.
     
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  5. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    This is the “No true scotsman” fallacy in practice. everybody claims to,practice true christianity while pointing to everyone else and claimimg they are practicing false christianity. All while they use the same book of stories.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Incorrect. God gave us free will, so if he has already determined our actions then what is the point of giving us laws if he already knows we are going to break them? How can he then punish us?

    Not true. God tells us all about himself in the Bible. He tells us his purpose and he also tells how he will implement it. He invites us to a part of it, but leaves that up to us. He will force no one to even believe in him. Spiritual people will seek him out. He will also seek them out.

    I thought I knew what God was all about having been raised in Christendom, but only when I studied the Bible apart from my early indoctrination, did I understand how little Christendom really knows about the God it purports to worship. The knowledge came from an unexpected source actually.....Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door.

    I had always sent them away, confident that others knew what they were talking about when they criticized them and said that they weren't even Christians. But one day after losing my father to death way too young, I wanted answers about why, and where he was? No church minister had been able to explain to me from the Bible what death is all about. If it was meant to happen, why did it feel so wrong? Running out of options, when they called that day, I asked them about death, not expecting to hear anything new.. Without hesitation they opened up the Bible and allowed it to speak. It changed my life.

    That is true, but Jesus said "you will know the truth and the truth will set you free"......I never knew what that meant until it happened to me.
    I was like a kid in a candy store.....for every answer I got, there was a hundred more questions....I got answers to all of them as I studied. It took me two solid years of study, research and observation to finally commit myself to this 'family'. It was the best thing I ever did.

    The Bible is more than enough to answer every question we have about life, death, suffering, family problems, child rearing, sex, marriage, crime and violence, alcohol or substance abuse, you name it, the Bible has a teaching or a principle to cover it. But it only works if you follow the advice.


    The "no true anything" argument is gauged by how people live up to what they claim to be. All you have to do is look at what the churches do, rather than listen to what they say.

    "Give me your money" was not something that had top priority among the first Christians. Contributing to the work carried out by volunteers is not something I ever had a problem with......but giving money to the church only to see the minister living the high life was always a worry to me. In one place I lived the local minister was always on the golf course. He had someone to mow his lawns, provide a car and fuel and even someone to clean the house he was provided, as well as clean the church. Some time later he disappeared and I was amused to hear that he had become the chaplain for the professional golfers. I rolled on the floor laughing for obvious reasons.

    In the town where I live now, the former Anglican minister was given a nice posting to the Defense Force. In the Military, chaplains (AFAIK) are given the rank and salary of a Captain. What happened to "Thou shalt not kill" or "you received free, give free"?
    It doesn't take long to work out who is serving God and who is serving themselves and ignoring the teachings of the one they claim to serve.

    Atheists are commonly the product of these churches.....and understandably so.
     
  7. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    I think if you take it sentence by sentence the meaning, or what is asked for, becomes clear.
    Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is within. In the Gospel of Thomas, not cononical or considered credible by some Christians, Jesus also is reported to have said, “If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.”

    Also, have you heard? The current Pope plans to change the line, "lead us not into temptation" so as to read instead, "Abandon us not into temptation."


    The wording makes little sense.
     
  8. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    I could argue that there is no such thing as free will in a universe where a god already knows every action and every outcome that will,occur.

    However, let’s ignore that logical,inconsistency for now.

    Your god interferes with a person’s “free will” repeatedly in the Bible, so it is not inviolable.
    Why is is not okay to violate free will to say slavery is immoral, but it is okay to violate free will. to say that you should not eat shellfish? That is a ridiculous argumemt to try and make and it demonstrates you do,not have a good grasp of what is in the Bible.

    The Bible says very little about the god itself. It says he has human traits and emotions. He gets mad when things don’t work out the way he wanted, even though he supposedly knew beforehand how they would work out.
    He gets jealous as if he were insecure and his ego got hurt. But there is virtually no concrete description of what he is that we can examine and verify. What makes him a god and how do you test somerhing like,that?

    I agree with you that Christians do not follow the whole,of the Bible. Neither do you. Some of the things it espouses would land you in prison, and rightly so.

    So you believe in the ten commandmemts. Do you follow every one of them? Do you know that if you look at the rest of the Old Testament, there are many more commandmemts? Do you follow all of them?

    Atheists are not a product of the churches and mosques.They are a product of skeptical thinking, logical thinking, and the rejection of unsubstantiated claims. The Bible properly read is a great agent for producing atheists.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    When you say the words what are you imagining the Kingdom to be and how does it come?

    One of my questions in the OP that no one seems to want to address is.....did Jesus tell us to pray this prayer? Was it ever meant to be a "collective petition"?

    What is God's name? Is it known throughout the world...or is it largely avoided?

    How is God's Kingdom "established among us"?

    Was God's will always done in heaven? When do you see it being done on earth?

    How are Christ's disciples "Gathered in to the Kingdom"? What purpose does this Kingdom serve?

    What is "the evil of the last days"?

    How do you understand these things?
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Sadly not to everyone. Many who parrot it off have never taken the time to understand what the words mean. :(

    I used to think that too until I did some further study.
    The Kingdom, Jesus said was to "come" so that God's will could "be done on earth as it is in heaven". So the kingdom had to be a pretty powerful force to bring that about. Looking at other scriptures to ascertain what the Kingdom was exactly, I studied the prophesies in Daniel for quite a while. Have you done so? Daniel's prophesies, God said were to be sealed up till "the time of the end". (our time) when knowledge was to become abundant. (Daniel 12:4: 9-10)

    In Daniel ch 2 King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream about an immense image with different body parts made of different metals. It began with a head of gold and progressed through lesser metals such as silver, copper, iron until it reached feet, partly of iron and partly of clay. Partly strong but partly weak. Its strength is weakened by its democracy.

    Then Daniel saw a huge stone cut out of a mountain but not with human hands (so nothing man made) and it struck the image on its feet and crushed the whole thing into dust. The dust was then blown away and the stone became a large mountain and filled the whole earth. It was a pretty impressive dream and one that only Daniel could interpret because it was from God.

    What Daniel revealed stretches all the way from his time, to our day. Each of the parts of the image represented world powers who have had dealings with God's people down through history, beginning with Babylon and foretelling the next world power to be Medo-Persia, then Greece, then Rome and finally Britain who became allied with the USA in these "last days". These final "kings" are represented by the feet of clay. There are no others before the stone is unleashed to do its destructive work. It all happened exactly as foretold.

    Daniel then says......" In the days of those kings [the last ones] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever." (Daniel 2:44 NASB)

    Who was Jesus speaking to when he said that "the Kingdom of God is within you"? (Luke 17:21) He was speaking to the Pharisees of whom God said "this people honors me with their lips but their heart is far removed from me". (Matthew 15:8) So there is no way that the Kingdom was within those wicked hearts. According to Daniel, this Kingdom was going to "come" in a very powerful way to crush human kingdoms out of existence and replace them...but not until our time.

    On further investigation, I discovered that other translations read..."nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.

    So to align with Daniel's prophesy, the Kingdom was not something "inside" those wicked, scheming Pharisees, but inside their nation, as God had promised. There was the King of God's Kingdom walking amongst them....and they failed to recognize him.

    Not a fan of the Apocryphal writings, because they only cause confusion by contradicting what is in the canon. I believe that God chose the canon and that it is his word, not the product of any church.

    LOL it makes sense in the current situation I guess, when so many of the clergy have abandoned themselves into temptation....and by the look of things, have done so for centuries. Apart from the sexual abuse it seems as though the Catholic institutions were also renown for their physical abuses too. The cruelty came I think, as a result of worshiping a god who tortures people in hell......why not do it on earth? The Inquisitions were testimony to the corruption of these men, drunk with power even over kings. :( The one she claims to serve is fittingly her judge.
     
  11. TheresOnlyNow

    TheresOnlyNow The Mind Is Everything. U R What U Think

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    Luke 17:20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.



    Have you ever researched the Canonical historic process? It took place over a period of more than 1200 years.
    There are over 40 authors responsible for what is contained within the Biblical Canon.
    The first faith any Christian accepts when looking to the Bible is that it was inspired by God. However, it has a very mortal history that makes man, men, responsible for every bit therein.
    Just as the tenets of Christianity, its doctrine and creeds, are the product of men's decisions and election.



    This Pope can change the words concerning temptation as he likes. But until or unless he surrenders every pedophile priest to the local authorities in the parish where they offend, his efforts mean nothing.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You can ignore it if you wish but that is not the way God operates. His Omniscience is controlled. He can choose to know whatever he wishes, but with free willed beings, he must allow them the choice of their actions because he has already warned of the natural consequences of many behaviors. He wants us to obey him willingly, not because he is standing over them with a big stick.

    When free will was given, it wasn't totally "free" anyway. It was conditional.... to be exercised within certain parameters for our own good. Every parent knows the value of object lessons. In the old days kids were allowed to fall out of trees and overturn billy carts and hurt themselves. Every second child had a broken arm in my day. Life lessons were tough but we learned to grow up and take responsibility for ourselves. It wasn't that we didn't know what could happen, as our mothers always warned us about the dangers, but we were not shielded from those harms that taught us more than words ever could. God is a good parent...not a helicopter parent. He does not want to micro-manage us. We have a conscience for a reason and experience teaches us more than words.

    Since free will was never truly "free"...that is not true. When does God repeatedly interfere with free will and it not be for our benefit? Please elaborate.

    Yes, it is a ridiculous argument if it were true. What slavery are you referring to? The slavery practiced in Israel or the one practiced by other nations?

    Taking the times into account, what was wrong with the slavery practiced in Israel? It was practically the social security of the day. If a man got into debt, he could sell himself or one of his children into slavery to pay the debt. Sounds awful, doesn't it? But it wasn't. It gave the man a way to pay his way out of debt, or to allow a son or daughter to work and earn a way to pay the debt so that he could take care of the rest of his family.

    We go and get a job to earn money....are we slaves to our employer? Slaves were not treated badly in Israel, in fact they were treated like employees. Slavery was an expected norm in those days. You can't compare them with our day. There were laws to protect slaves, just as there are laws to protect employees.

    And as for the shellfish thing, like pork in those times certain shellfish carried dangerous bacteria that could kill people. As with all of Israel's laws there was always a good reason for them. All they had to do was obey.....not a difficult thing at all. God knew what they did not...he still does.

    Is that what you think? Who told you that? God is not like science where you need "evidence" that can be tested under a microscope or in a lab. But I have just as much real evidence for his existence as science has for their godless theory. Nature is as real as we are......it didn't just poof itself into existence undirected. Science has a bigger fairy story than we do and with less evidence IMO.

    Please tell me what would rightly land the world's most peaceful people in prison? We are the most law-abiding citizens of any land we occupy. But we will not break God's laws to carry out the will of man. (Acts 5:29)

    Christians are no longer under the Ten Commandments......or didn't you know that? The Law, including the Ten Commandments, was given to Jews, not Gentiles. So because I am not Jewish I do not keep the Law. There are only two laws for Christ's disciples...."to love God with your whole being and to love your neighbor as yourself." Yes, I try hard to keep those laws.

    Which is what I said. The churches are responsible for more atheists and skeptics than anything else. Christendom's teachings have no logic...none of them make sense. But that isn't the Bible's fault...and its not God's fault.....he is simply allowing all humans to stretch their wings and see where free will takes them, if it is practiced outside of the bounds that he set. Welcome to the world that free willed humans have created by ignoring God's laws.....this is what results.....wonderful isn't it? [​IMG]
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You have too many misapprehensions to note in a reasonable length of a post. I will have to pick and choose. There is no "heavenly Jerusalem" for the saints of Daniel 7:18. Those saints will who did not receive the mark of the beast, and were not deceived by his false prophet, who wrote Galatians, will arise from the dead, and reign with Yeshua for 1000 years in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16), on earth (Revelation 20:4), after the kingdoms of Daniel 2:35 & 45 & 7:17 are all crushed at the "same time".

    Psalms 92:7 is simply about the "wicked" who will "be destroyed for evermore."

    Psalms 37:9-11,29 is about the "evil doers" being "cut off", and the "righteous will inherit the land".

    As for healing, per Revelation 22:2 & Ezekiel 47:12, "the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations".

    Isaiah 34:24 is with regards to Zion, the city of our appointed feasts.

    As for "For at that time, even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth" as per the false prophet who wrote 1 Cor 15:26 that is false. Isaiah 25:8 would refer to "His people", the saints, who had been raised from the dead. Those who had not been raised from the dead, would be thought accursed, if they didn't live to be 100 years old (Isaiah 65:20).

    As for the "majority of mankind" inheriting the earth, it is the "many" on the road to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13) & Isaiah 24:6 New American Standard Bible
    Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty. Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.

    Trying to rephrase Scripture to meet the expectations you have received from your false prophet Paul, simply does not work.
     
    #93 2ndpillar, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I explained this in some detail. It doesn't mean what many Christians think it means. In the context that Jesus said it, it makes no sense to tell the Pharisees that the Kingdom is within them....it never was.

    The Kingdom is 'coming' to set this world to rights, crushing all corrupt human rulerships out of existence and replacing them. The "sheep" will be separated from the "goats" and then we can get back what Adam lost for us in Eden. Jesus' blood bought that for us.

    Do you believe that the Bible that we have today is the word of God or the word of men?
    For over 1600 years the Catholic church has taken the credit for the Bible canon....but many do not accept the Apocrypha, so to me they didn't do a very good job at choosing what we would need to come to Christ. They just created confusion and promoted their own ideas adopted from Roman paganism, passing them off as "Christian" for centuries. Protestantism wasn't much better. It just broke Christianity up into bickering, disunited fragments. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    God took the Bible from the church at the Reformation and put it back into the hands of the common people where it belonged. The church had kept it hidden away, failing to impart to their flocks its wonderful truths, but instead introducing all manner of pagan traditions that are still there to this day.

    I do not believe that the contents of the Bible we have today had anything to do with men at all. If its God's word then he was responsible for its contents.

    It helps to understand why the church became a haven for pedophiles and homosexuals in the first place. Easy access to children who were orphaned or disadvantaged in some way so that they could get away with their sin for so long with no one to complain because of fear, and easy access to like minded men with no one to answer to because God was apparently looking the other way. o_O
     
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  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Divine laws of course which would bring us closer to God.
     
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  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 4:17). The "kingdom of heaven" is power and spirit. If someone comes among you, and preaches the kingdom of heaven, and can not heal the sick, or cast out demons, then the kingdom of heaven is probably not at hand, and "has not come upon you".

    Matthew 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Luke 17 19 Then Jesus said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well!” 20When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”…[/QUOTE]
     
    #96 2ndpillar, Jan 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  17. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    It is important to state that what I have written is in the context of the Didache which was written circa 50-60 CE by the earliest Jewish- Christian communities and as used by them to train their converts.

    There is no indication anywhere in the text that they knew of any other "Christian Scriptures" nor had any concept of the Trinity, the virgin birth, or any other later manifestations of Christian tradition. They did teach how to baptise, and the practice of the weekly Eucharist, and the version of the Lords Prayer given in my previous post and shown below.

    The prayer is a collective petition to God, by his people, for the establishment of his kingdom on earth. And for their successful place within it. When we repeat it as individuals we do so as one of many of the petitioners.
    As I said in my previous post the Lords prayer is Eschatological It is essentially praying for the coming of the kingdom, which those people expected to occur during their life time. They never wrote what they expected to occur except that it would be a time of great tribulation.

    Our Heavenly Father,
    may your name be holy throughout the world
    and your kingdom established among us,
    so that the earth, like heaven, obeys your will.
    may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom
    and be forgiven at the final judgement,
    as we have forgiven others.
    but spare us on the day of trial
    and from the evil of the last days.
    because yours is the power and glory forever.
    It was a prayer given to his Disciples when teaching them how to pray.
    The Original Greek in the Didache suggest it was a collective prayer of petition and it makes sense to continue using it as such



    They never mentioned the name of God.
    I suspect they were using "in the Name of God" in the sense we use "in the name of the law" today meaning with the Authority of. so the meaning would be That the authority of God be known through out the world.
    It does not say how, nor does it need to, as the establishment of God's kingdom would be more than obvious to all.
    The old testament makes it clear that it was not, however those times were past, though they believed Satan was still at work on earth. God's will is certainly done on earth but not consistently. with the coming of the kingdom that was expected to change.

    The didache does not make this clear, nor do I think the how is important. I am not sure what the "Only" kingdom can serve, outside its own being.
    The section covering the Eucharist in the Didache, goes to some length comparing the scattering of grain in the hills, and then harvesting it to make one loaf (of Bread) to the gathering of the people in Gods kingdom. this has been forgotten in today's version of the lords prayer which refers to bread as food.

    the context seems to infer "Horror" of the last day rater than evil.

    As an Anglican with both liberal and "Unitarian" sympathies. I also have considerable sympathy with the people of the "Didache.
    However their belief in the coming of the Kingdom in their lifetime has proved incorrect.
    That does not mean that the version of the Lord's prayer that I have given is wrong, but it does mean that the "expectation" needs to be re-positioned.
    I find it a more believable version than that used by most churches today.

    What is interesting, is that few mainstream Christians believe that the Kingdom will be established on earth but in heaven. which is a more understandable belief. Their belief is that they will go to heaven when they die and live in God's Kingdom. few people still believe that we will rise from our graves. ( which is not something I can support either)
     
    #97 Terrywoodenpic, Jan 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  18. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Liturgy is public prayer, and there is an order to it and is probably where the Our Father found its form, to be recited together, in unison, long before it is penned in the Gospel we now read.
     
  19. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    The numerous scholarly opinions gives evidence to the interest in determining the origin of the 'Our Father', in Latin the 'Pater Noster'.

    http://raymondebrownss.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/5/9/20590956/raymond_brown_pater_noster.pdf
     
  20. Marcion

    Marcion Self-realisation and Service to Humanity

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    What you are doing is take a Christian version of a Q-lite saying and tell me that it is Tantric.
    Of course it is Tantric if it comes from Q-lite.

    But the edited version is not half as convincingly Tantric as the original because Christians have extended and changed the ideology of Q-lite into their own ideology and have added a lot of their own stuff.
    And this happened before the narrative gospels were written, so long before the meeting at Nicea.

    The original text reads:

    Q-lite: The reconstructed sayings of the tantric-mystic Master Yeshua

    Q 17: 20b-21 / Luke 17: 20b-21 = Matthew 24: 26

    20b The Rule of God does not come by observation [‘parateresos’]. 21 They should not say: “He can be observed in the wilderness, nor in the inner, secret chambers (of temples) [‘tameiois’]. For the Rule of God is within you! [‘entos humon’].
     
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