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Featured The Lord's Prayer...What are we Praying For?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I see it is Prophecy and a Promise.

    I also see it has been fulfilled and unfolding.

    Regards Tony
     
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  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Reading Scripture is not taking the name of God in vain. And certainly the name for God used in synagogues is not Jehovah. Taking God's name in vain would be having older pairs of woman going in what they think is God's name, house to house selling tracts, and not really having a grasp on what the kingdom of God is, nor having the power of the kingdom of heaven. The shortest synopsis of the kingdom of God is Daniel 2:34-35, and another very short synopsis of the kingdom of God is Joel 3. All having to do with the judgment of God, and the healing of Jacob (Judah and Ephraim) (Hosea 5 & 6:1-2). The long version is the Law and the prophets. As for the English version of YHWH, as shown in Exodus 3:14, is "I am".

    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
     
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    And who are these workers of lawlessness? Are you under the Law, or has your false prophet released you from the Law (Romans 7:6).
     
  4. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Hi Deeje. Thank you for sharing your views. First I always admire the JW for the work they do and whenever I meet them I invite them in to share their beliefs with us. This is just my understanding and I always believe love comes above ‘winning an argument’ so I respect your views and am not in competition with you just sharing the ‘little’ I know.

    The Jews too were awaiting a worldly king seated on the throne of David but when these events did not actually come to pass outwardly with Jesus they rejected and crucified Him accusing Him of being an imposter, no king but the son of a carpenter and one who broke the laws of Moses.

    Had they looked tiwards the light of God within Jesus they surely would have embraced and followed Him. As it turned out He only had a handful of followers and it took centuries before His influence was established worldwide by His followers.

    Christ’s ascendancy was not instant or immediate but slow and gradual. But even though He has influenced the entire world, the Jewish Community still ask ‘when will our messiah appear’?

    They missed seeing the truth of Jesus we believe because they misread the signs and still do, so still await an earthly king seated on the throne of God to appear and that wolves will lie down together with sheep.

    Had they reflected on the fact God is spirit they might not have judged Jesus by worldly standards but looked at His spiritual might that He was born of the Holy Spirit.

    So the Christians looked at Jesus with their inner eyes and ears and saw His true reality by not interpreting the signs all literally.

    Baha’is accept Jesus as the Son of God because we see the inner light of God within Him and that He was born of the Holy Spirit.

    With Baha’u’llah, Baha’is see in Him the fulfillment of the promises made by Jesus that He would return in the same manner that Christians accepted Jesus the first time, by looking at His inward light and reality for Jesus did not appear on a throne but as the son of a carpenter.

    The Bible does not say every eye shall see Him instantly or immediately. Jesus influence was gradual over many centuries.

    Suffering and wars will disappear with the appearance of Baha’u’llah but the Bible does not say instantly. So we are now building the Kingdom of God on earth and it’s light will shine brighter with time just as it did with Jesus.

    Baha’u’llah means ‘glory of god’ in English. He wrote a Tablet addressed to Christians where He asks Bethlehem:

    O Bethlehem! This Light hath risen in the orient, and traveled towards the occident, until it reached thee in the evening of its life. Tell Me then: Do the sons recognize the Father, and acknowledge Him, or do they deny Him, even as the people aforetime denied Him (Jesus)?” Whereupon she cried out saying: “Thou art, in truth, the All-Knowing, the Best-Informed.” Verily, We behold all created things moved to bear witness unto Us. Some know Us and bear witness, while the majority bear witness, yet know Us not. (Baha’u’llah)


     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Haven't you read the Jewish Tanach? In Exodus 3:14 it says...."God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

    God's name never was "I Am". It is not a statement of his existence but of his intentions. It is future tense.

    You would do well to come down off your high horse and do some proper research.

    Those who fail to "do the will of God" Jesus said. They think that they are Christians......but Jesus doesn't think so. He is the judge and he will pass judgment accordingly. The distinction between the "sheep" and the "goats" is determined at the final showdown....the sheep inherit life...the goats will never be seen again. (Matthew 25:32; 41)

    What is your problem with Paul? o_O Who told you he was a false prophet? Jesus chose him as one who would take the good news to the Gentiles....people he formerly despised as much as he did the Christians. The other apostles accepted him. Peter accepted correction from him. He was never one of the 12 and never pretended to be. His commission was as an apostle to the nations. As a Pharisee he could speak to Pharisees as an equal, not as man despised for his lack of education. As an educated man he could speak to the Greek philosophers on an intellectual level. As a Roman citizen he had more rights under law than others which also gave him advantages. As an apostle he engendered much love among the ones he assisted.

    He was a tentmaker by trade and worked for his own keep so as not to become a financial burden to his brothers. There is so much to admire about Paul but you ignore the fact that the apostles were the recipients of holy spirit. They knew that Ananias and Sapphira had falsely claimed to give the full price of the field they sold. If Peter knew this, how come the holy spirit didn't tell him that Paul was a fraud?

    Have you no powers of reason? [​IMG] Jesus said that what you do to his brothers, you do to him. Be careful how you judge, or you may well receive the same in return.

    As for the Law.....Jesus himself said that he had not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.
    Matthew 5:17-19...."Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (NASB)'

    You notice he said..." not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." That word "until" means that the Law was going to be nailed to the torture stake with him. With his death, his whole mission was accomplished. The new covenant would replace the old, and the only two laws that bound Christians came to be known as the Law of Love.....'Love of God and neighbor'. Jesus said that these two summed up the whole law.

    I think you need to take the blinkers off and read your Bible.
     
  6. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Solomom in the bible says "the highest heavens cannot contain you, how much less this temple"
     
  7. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    I remember when the prayer, over the loud speaker, in public schools and the doxology which the Protestants included and the Catholics at that point were silent until the Amen.
    What must be considered is the form of the prayer in its liturgical use which precedes the penning of the Gospels and its use within the differing churches and languages, how the ancient form of the prayer evolved.

    The Kingdom is now but not yet. It was inaugurated by Jesus but will be realized only in God's time, the reign or rule of God.
     
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You have swallowed the false gospel of grace/cross, hook line and sinker. The Law and the prophets have not been fulfilled, and "the heaven and earth have not passed away" (Matthew 5:18). None of Zechariah 14 has been fulfilled. Daniel 2:44-45 has not been fulfilled. Matthew 24:29-50 hasn't been fulfilled, etc. etc.
     
  9. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    not a bad retort.....but of course...
    when I post the notation.....Carpenter
    most people turn their thoughts to Him

    as for extension.....
    I haven't followed any one of congregation
    I don't have a mentor.....however

    I have often posted.....
    the Carpenter is my inspiration

    and would you care to comment to the postwork that followed ......36 and 37
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as "tense" in biblical Hebrew. http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/m.sion/hebrtens.htm

    New Living Translation
    God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."

    English Standard Version
    God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’”

    Berean Study Bible
    God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

    New American Standard Bible
    God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

    King James Bible
    And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

    Christian Standard Bible
    God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."

    Good News Translation
    God said, "I am who I am. You must tell them: 'The one who is called I AM has sent me to you.'

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."

    International Standard Version
    God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and then said, "Tell the Israelis: 'I AM sent me to you.'"

    NET Bible
    God said to Moses, "I am that I am." And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, 'I am has sent me to you.'"

    New Heart English Bible
    And God said to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    And God said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.'
     
  11. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    I don't think that the historical Yeshua ever spoke the Lord's prayer. Like many parts of the texts of Matthew and Luke, the authors have mixed older texts with their own writings and they were not afraid to heavily edit the older texts that they worked into their newly created gospels.

    A part of what is now called "The Lord's Prayer" originated in the text of Q-lite.
    Q-lite is a Tantric text i.e. it consists of spiritual wisdom or instructions mixed with other practical instructions for the followers in the original mission.
    So the parts of Q-lite that ended up in the Christian Lord's Prayer must have had this Tantric content also.

    It is not a part of Tantra to beg God for favours especially for earthly ones nor to tell others (let alone boast) about your spiritual practices such as meditation, fasting or doing social service which should be done in a "hidden" way without investing any ego or doership.
    It seems in Q-lite the only prayer that was allowed, is to ask for the Holy Spirit or the Rule of God, i.e. for spiritual enlightenment.

    So the original Q-lite saying may have looked something like this:

    ====

    Q? / Matthew 6: 3-4, 17-18, 6-8 Sondergut

    3 When you do some act of charity, do not let your left hand know 4 what your right hand is doing; your good deed must be secret and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

    17 When you fast, anoint your 18 head and wash your face, so that men may not see that you are fasting, but only your Father who sees what is secret will reward you.

    6 When you pray, go into a room by yourself, shut the door, and pray to your Father who is there in the secret place; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

    7 In your prayers do not go babbling on like the heathen who imagine that the more they say, the more likely they 8 are to be heard. Do not imitate them. Your Father knows what your needs are before you ask him.

    Q 11: 2 / Luke 11: 2 = Matthew 6: 9-10a, (10b Sondergut)

    2a When you pray, say:

    2b Beloved Father (Abba),

    Let Your Name be hallowed (not in Marcion)*;

    Marcion and early Luke prefer: Let Your Holy Spirit come.

    Matthew and later Luke prefer: Let Your Rule come.

    [-] Let Your Will be done. (not in Marcion or early Luke)

    ====

    I find it hard to say whether gMatthew or gMarcion/Luke preserves the original better and in which place they do so or not.
    gMatthew has a large part that is missing in gMarcion/Luke (called Sondergut Matthew).
    This is left out of most of the different reconstructions of Q, but content-wise it belongs very much to the Tantric ideology of Q-lite and I think that aMarcion/Luke must have had a reason to omit it while copying from Q-lite and aMatthew was not the original author (although he edited it by adding his own stuff).

    * a well-known Sanskrit mantra Baba Nama Kevalama has about the same meaning?
     
    #51 Marcion, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    So we have to come to terms with how much we actually know about heaven to address this question.

    In Acts 7: 46-50...."He [David] found favor in the sight of God and asked for the privilege of providing a dwelling place for the God of Jacob. 47 But it was Solʹo·mon who built a house for him. 48 However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands, just as the prophet says: 49 ‘The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What sort of house will you build for me? Jehovah says. Or where is my resting-place? 50 My hand made all these things, did it not?’"

    So it is obvious that the personage who created the Universe is never going to be contained in anything built by man on this tiny speck of a planet in just one solar system among millions of galaxies. If heaven is God's throne and earth is his footstool, how huge must that throne be? Do we really know what these scriptures mean in any real sense? How do we imagine heaven? Does it have boundaries? Who knows? Doesn't it help to know that there are in fact two heavens in human understanding? The one where God lives and the other where birds fly. They are obviously not the same. One is physical, the other is not.

    When saying..."But will God really dwell on the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!" .....did Solomon know much about heaven?

    Nehemiah wrote..."You alone are Jehovah; you made the heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens and all their army, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them."

    What were "the heavens of the heavens" to earth dwellers back then? All they had was what was visible to the naked eye......compare that to what we have now and ask those same questions.....aren't they even more significant? Aren't we even less?
     
    #52 Deeje, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yet God will choose sanctified "Israel" for "My sanctuary" "forever". (Ezekiel 37:28). The Spirit of God is like the body snatchers, but he only abides in and among the righteous. The sinners/lawless (1 John 3:4), the wicked, need not apply. "Jerusalem will be holy, and strangers will pass through no more" (Joel 3:17). The "murderers and the idolaters", will remain "outside" the "gate" (Revelation 22:14-15).
     
  14. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Baha'is believe the bible to be authentic in substance but we can not know the exact words Jesus said and we should be wary of taking it all literally. That being said the Gospels were under God's protection and we can be confident that all God wanted to communicate through Jesus is there in the Gospels and the Epistles of the Apostles.

    There are many meanings that could be derived from this prayer. That would includes the fulfilment of prophecy and God establishing His Kingdom on earth. There are many signs in the world today where justice and peace are within humanity's grasp.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If you say so....you obviously know what no one else does......how come?
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is why I trust the Bible. God authored it and then preserved it through a horrible, bloodthirsty history and then released it to the people again when the time was right.
    It was then translated into many languages as the word spread all over the world. The Reformation accomplished that, but it didn't unite Christians, it simply caused more division as men claimed that their interpretation was the correct one. Sectarianism is never the answer.

    Christendom is fractured into thousands of disunited churches.....something Paul said would not identify true Christianity.....all had to be united in one faith. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    What many meanings could there be? Can you elaborate?

    I see the signs that Jesus gave to indicate that his Kingdom is already established among his own disciples. (Matthew 24:3-14) It is not yet established over the whole earth. It will come by force according to Daniel (Daniel 2:44) when Christ comes to crush the devil inspired system that has ruled mankind since the beginning.

    Humans will never bring about the peace and security we long for....even though they will claim to.

    1 Thessalonians 5:1-6....
    "Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape. 4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves, 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.

    6 So, then, let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses."


    Any cry of "peace and security" by man will be short lived.

    They have had thousands of years to try and get it right...they have never succeeded. To this day, rulership of the world is in the hands of incompetents under the control of the devil. (1 John 5:19)

    I don't know how you can be so confident that humans in their fallen state will ever accomplish anything good. Their track record is atrocious.
     
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  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Anything is possible if we have faith.

    Matthew 17:20

    Because of your little faith. For truly I say to you, if you have faith as of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. And nothing will be impossible for you."
     
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  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If God has already told us by means of his word exactly how he will bring peace and security to this earth, and it doesn't involve any organization or nation of men to bring it about, why would we need faith in humans when we can have faith in God?

    Humans fail again and again.....God never fails to do what he says he will. (Isaiah 55:11)
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    It is strange that the "Word of God" should be so unfamiliar with you. That is why included chapter and verse.
     
  20. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Our main point of agreement is the Bible. We also agree that despite the authenticity and authority of the Bible Christianity has become hopelessly divided.

    Another meaning is in regards the necessity of reading and studying the words of Jesus every day. The prayer reads give us this day our daily bread and the bread symbolises the word of God (Matthew 6:11, John 6:25-35).

    Jesus taught His disciples to teach the Gospels to all the Nations, an achievement accomplished by the Christian Church's missionary work by the mid-nineteenth century despite its divisions.

    Examples of the signs of a more just and peaceful world today are:

    1/ The establishment of the equality of men and women
    2/ The recognition of the oneness of humanity
    3/ An increase in cooperation world wide
    4/ The reduction in global conflict
    5/ The abolition of slavery
    6/ The establishment of democracy as a means of governance
    7/ The removal of all forms of prejudice based on religion, race, nationality and gender.
    8/ The development of technology that has turned the world into a global village.
     
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