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Featured The Lord's Prayer...What are we Praying For?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    It’s faith in God’s system. The Kingdom of God is His Kingdom and cannot fail.
     
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  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Paul's babel is "all things to all men", and apparently the road to approximately 38,000 (many) different sects.(1 Corinthians 9:19-23) & (Matthew 7:13)

     
  3. Marcion

    Marcion Self-realisation and Service to Humanity

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    Yeshua did no such thing, the Christian religion created that as part of their religious myth.
    You cannot dogmatically uphold that the Chistian Bible is infallible truth and at the same time uphold that Christianity has "lost the proper way".
    This is not only done by Bahai, but also by Protestants including Yehova Witnesses.

    If you wish to explain where Christians fell out of touch with the (Tantric) mission of the historical Yeshua, you will have to analyse and criticize the texts in the Christian Bible as well.
    If you fail to do so, you are no different from the Christians who deviated in earlier days, creating and believing in your own religious myths instead of finding truth.
     
    #63 Marcion, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Would you care to define "Kingdom of God"?
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the Kingdom of God is 'the' kingdom mentioned at Daniel 2:44
    So, to me that means God's kingdom is a real government, just as the other world powers are real governments.
     
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  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Jesus told us Not to use the same wording over and over again (repetition) in prayer.
    Matthew and Luke are thus samples of that model Our Father prayer.
    Since much is Not recorded about what Jesus said to all the peoples, then those two accounts are samples.
    In other words, Jesus most likely gave a model or example of that prayer many different times or on many occasions.
    So, to me that means it has nothing to do with the first time he phased it.
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Jesus taught us Not to repeat at Matthew 6:7, so we are Not to repetitiously say the same words but use one's own words.
     
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "kingdom of God" will be a real governing power, after it crushes the other powers, "all at the same time", listed in Daniel 2:44-45 & 2:35. It will rule the nations with a "rod of iron" (Revelation 19:15). On the other hand, the "kingdom of heaven, at hand", in conjunction with the healing of the sick, is the kingdom at hand, using the power and Spirit of God, to show its presence.
     
    #68 2ndpillar, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  9. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Or it could mean not to use "repetition", and once should be sufficient. In other words, a rosary would not be in order, or the use of "one's own words", repetitiously, such as is done with the "Hail Mary" sequence, and keeping tract with a rosary.
     
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  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the healing of the sick by kingdom power (Jesus) is future time as per Isaiah 33:24.
    For now, there is ' spiritual healing ' with the 'oil of God's Word ' (Bible).
    I find ' faith healers ' can't even heal baldness. Can't heal missing body parts, etc.
    Physical healing ended with the apostles.
    Physical healing will return at the coming time of Revelation 22:2.
    This is when there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations at that kingdom time of a thousand years.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    "God's system" is the Law. The false prophet Paul has supposedly released his followers from the Law (Romans 7:6). Allah's system seems to be called Sharia. The "Word of God", the Law and the prophets, will prevail.(Revelation 19:13-15)
     
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 33:24 is about the healing in line with "forgiven their iniquity". People are sick, mostly because they are living in their sins. If there were some righteous sitting around, their prayers, along with the confession of the offender, could result in forgiveness of sin and healing. (James 5:15). Paul's congregation of sinners would have problems losing weight, much less growing hair. As for Revelation 22:2, that is with respect to the therapeutic value of the of certain leaves for healing the nations. Not so much for forgiving sin. The "wicked"/sinners will not be in Jerusalem, for "Jerusalem will be holy" (Joel 3:17), and the sinners, will be "outside" the "gates" (Revelation 22:14-15).
     
  13. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    The prayer evolved during its liturgical use and is reflected in the penned Gospel.
     
  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    But Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God being within...

    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Luke 17:20-21

    How tantric is that?

    Of all that Christ commanded, the achievement of the great commission is testimony to the persistence and resilience of Christians, despite their faults.

    Christianity became derailed through the Nicene Creed in the 4th century, coincidently when the choice of New testament books was largely finalised.
     
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  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    A Divine System with laws revealed by God.
     
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  16. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Probably the earliest written version of the Lords prayer is found in the Didache.
    In 2014 I tried to make some sense of it Using the Translation by Aaron Milavec in his work on the Didache.
    First of all it should be remembered that the lords prayer is one about looking forward to the coming of the end of times (Eschatology)

    The Lords prayer

    from the Didache Aaron Milavec The Didache Text, translation, analysis, and commentary.

    Our Father, the one in heaven,
    your name be made holy,
    your kingdom come,
    your will be born upon earth as in heaven,
    give us this day our loaf that is coming,
    and forgive us our debt at the final judgement
    as we likewise now forgive our debtors.
    and do not lead us into the trial of the last days
    but deliver us from that evil
    because yours is the power and glory forever.

    -o-0-o-

    Below, is an attempt to give the essence of this Lords Prayer using the above translation, and some of the logic from the commentary of Aaron Milavec's book, as a guide to the sense.

    our heavenly father” makes clear which father;”May your name....”his name is already holy, this make the wish clear for it to be so everywhere; “your kingdom...”makes clear the imperative for it to be established here;

    may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom “ is a reference to the thought given in the didache Eucharist, comparing the gathering of the grain into a loaf to the gathering of the people into the kingdom and the desire that it should be soon.

    I have left open “what” we are to be forgiven. As it is a reciprocal of what we forgive.

    The second coming and the end of times was thought to be imminent.. “but spare us....”the trial and the evil of the last days are inevitable, except for the elect, who they hope to be amongst. All the petitions would seem to be eschatological and referring to one time events.

    The prayer is a collective petition to God, by his people, for the establishment of his kingdom on earth. And for their successful place within it. When we repeat it as individuals we do so as one of many of the petitioners.

    (my version of this)

    Our Heavenly Father,
    may your name be holy throughout the world
    and your kingdom established among us,
    so that the earth, like heaven, obeys your will.
    may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom
    and be forgiven at the final judgement,
    as we have forgiven others.
    but spare us on the day of trial
    and from the evil of the last days.
    because yours is the power and glory forever.




    Terry Andrews July 2014


     
    #76 Terrywoodenpic, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  17. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    well, since the outcomes of either type of prayer are mutually exclusive, there seems to be a logical contradiction in their Bible.
    I don’t expect either type of prayer to be answered. Near as I can determine, there is no god to answer them.
     
  18. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    the two words have very different meanings, but are not mutually exclusive.
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    And what set of "laws" would those be?
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Your initial comment was.....
    "It is interesting that Christians pray for god’s will to be done in one prayer, and in another prayer ask him to bend to their will and change the course of events in their favor."

    Perhaps not all prayers are in accord with the instruction manual?
    It basically says that all prayers must be offered "according to God's will".....not according to ours, so sometimes we can ask for an outcome that is in accord with both. That is not bending God's will, but asking for it to be applied in our case.

    OTOH, some people treat God as some kind of Celestial Waiter, so when they snap their fingers, he should eagerly jump to their service. But when he fails to meet their expectations, they ditch him. (Not going back to that restaurant, the service was terrible!)

    Our perception of God can come from several sources, and our expectations of who and what he is, can be a confused mix of "churching" and "parenting". For some he remains an enigma. You cannot love a mystery.

    Getting an accurate handle on God can be a confounding exercise, so in my case, I ditched all I learned in church and from my parents and allowed the Bible itself to tell me who God is.

    He is nothing even remotely close to what Christendom says he is. I discovered a whole other God that is not confusing or confounding at all. He is actually my best friend. More people should meet him. ;)
     
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