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Featured The importance of a 'trickster' god, Loki and the snake

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ideogenous_mover, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    So when people think about the garden scenario in genesis, I wonder if they often attribute 'evil' to the snake, or evil to man for listening to it. I think perhaps this changes if you might change your perception of what the snake is, and understand its role between man and god. For in the bible, you might come to understand that the snake is actually the primary representation of the 'trickster god,' a primary element which is common to ancient spirituality

    For a better understanding of this, I have read the norse poem 'Lokasenna,' where the 'garden' metaphor is transformed into a feast hall. For in lokasenna, all the gods become humanized in a fairly full way, for Loki shows exactly where they are the most impious. Great and 'holy' powers are shown not to be beyond criticism. Naturally, they want him to leave, to get kicked out of the 'garden,' but the wisest god will not allow this. In this, you can see that the trickster's role is not actually entirely in deception, but it is integrated as an element that will tell the truth.

    The snake in bible is surely a great analog to this. Now god didn't make the snake 'evil,' but he made him crafty or cunning. Like Loki, the snake is allowed to dwell near to god, and for a reason: it has a valuable perspective rather than a purely malevolent one, though perhaps it is an unwelcome or 'rude' one. So we can see that perhaps when it spoke to Eve, it had told her a hard truth that perhaps the other god or gods did not want to admit. So then, the snake is made to slither - but it is still there, because its perspective remains relevant, though those who are more powerful may dislike it

    So to spell it more clearly, the snake in the bible was revealing that a part of god's psyche did not want humans to have an 'objective notion' of good and evil. (if good and evil are actually to be objectively known) At least that seems to be a conclusion that could be drawn, and also that this was possibly a flaw in god's thinking, and with the snake pointing this out, we can discern the snake's functionality to god

    There are other observations that could be made on the 'trickster' god element, and why it may have been seen as useful to our ancestors around the world... what do you think?
     
    #1 ideogenous_mover, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  2. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    So like God has an anti opposite equal????
    Not evil, but like a master of subtlety???

    What's the point of a trickster God?

    I think I get the idea though. God's counterpart testing the character of God's own creations.

    However the serpent or snake lied about God and deceived Adam and Eve.

    What would be the point of the deception?

    The choice offered was to not trust God and not believe God and his commandment and consequences thereof.

    Now God being a careful creator and totally in control creator at that, allowed the deception.

    Allowing the deception serves what purpose?

    Adam and Eve were made perfectly and brilliantly I gather. What's the point of deceiving them in their naivety?

    The snake was a bald faced liar accusing God of being dishonest and untrue to his word.

    The snake must be an enemy. And God wanted Adam and Eve to choose God over the snake.

    God's very first creation rebelled and made himself enemy to God. Prior to this first creation evil had never existed before. So God must have wanted to see what Adam and Eve would do also.

    I surmise that God's plan is to defeat evil and the possibility of it once and for all eternity. By defeating evil at every stage of it's doings and at all points.

    God's first creation was an angel made with perfect wisdom, knowledge, and beauty.

    Adam and Eve were made perfectly naive from dust.

    The snake serves a purpose to God and that was to allow the lie, and reveal every heart of the matter.

    Any way you slice the story it is fascinating.
     
  3. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    A God's[divine perfect supreme being] first creation - rebels
    an angel made with perfect wisdom, knowledge, and beauty - goes bad anyway
    this whole story doesn't really have a lot of integrity to it now does it.
     
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  4. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    The angel does not exist unless a human lives discussing what they believe an angel is, which is a debate.

    The trick of the fool, of the science self telling the stories in human life, living, is instant change button pusher. His quotes, his machine made out of strings of minerals that he melted in a Satanic alchemical theme...to get his machine to be fused and cooled like God the planet...then infers so when I push my button it will react like God the stone planet.

    But it does not. For the machine does not own creative natural history, and if he did not instantly push his buttons, the machine does not even exist in reality of inference to history of particles and fusion in their natural states. The fool was always the scientist. For when science says to science you cause destruction then science should never have existed. For it is artificial and forced change.

    Why he quotes his foolish God is an artificial reactive cause. Why he quoted and no man is God. As he sacrificed his own life.

    His thesis when space instantly reacted/created is not the same thesis for when his owned building/controlled machine is button pushed. His hot dense state reaction was ground fission in reality. Heat the ground upon which you stand and you die, simple matter of fact.

    His theme, the after life and a non decomposing highest human bio life, deceased form is a S AIN T human. Who lives in the after life non decomposing.

    ICE was stated to be the stable ownership of human baby DNA/Genesis, in a renewing mass function yearly. As it is now melting, the expectation is instant flood, which the original science theory thesis was from. A flooded Earth. Flooding rain is a continuance that is not instant flooding to equal the origin of the science thesis, instant water mass.

    ICE melting to own a instant all in one event, when ice melts its mass body to a place where instant melt is then activated is when the science thesis, the origin of science, or the science fool, scene of the crime returns. How cities were instantly plunged under water before. As the history water return to ICE mass had not yet occurred to raise up the sunken cities.

    Genesis 13:17

    Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth; for I will give it to you
    Source: 62 Bible verses about Land

    World History 1300-1400 AD
    1314 - 1317 AD Great European Famine - The worst famine to strike Europe occurred between 1314-1317. It was widespread, affecting all of Northern Europe. Eyewitness accounts tell of the poor and hungry resorting to eating cats and dogs. 1315 AD …

    The fool and being tricked, after Moses science had melted the ICE, its causes of being present, belonged also to evaporation and re freeze. Science cause and effect never related information historically to water being removed from ICE release back to a frozen mass.

    Seeing the law of the cosmology is for the spatial vacuum sucking upon all heated mass is to eventually force the mass to cool to a non radiating event.

    No one would know how much ICE melted in the Moses pyramid/temple attack on Earth, and they should have thought about ICE evaporating water to replace its removed freeze/mass owned naturally on Earth.

    Laws about the cosmos claiming space was the highest and holiest state, put Mother of God as that titled teaching, completely ignored by science today.
     
  5. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    It's an interesting idea, certainly. The gods of the Greeks and Romans played tricks on mankind too - and were far from uniformly well-intentioned.

    In the Genesis story, the snake says, correctly, that eating the fruit of the tree would make Man "like gods", knowing good from evil. This does not actually contradict what God has told them about the consequences of eating it, viz. that they will die. The snake is said to be "subtle", rather than evil.

    God has already given Man free will, evidently, and Man makes the choice to embrace knowledge of good and evil (moral awareness) at the expense of enduring death. As someone intelligently pointed out in another thread recently, there is an illogicality in the story at this point, since the supposedly "sinful" act of disobedience is performed before they can tell right from wrong! :confused:

    So how can it be sinful? As a matter of fact I was always taught that Original Sin is a term expressing Man's inherent tendency to do wrong in spite of knowing the difference between right and wrong - our intrinsic sinfulness, in other words.

    But returning to your point, the Abrahamic religions seem, indeed, to be a bit short of figures to account for the "tricks" that life plays on us all. There is the figure of the Devil of course, but not all the "tricks" we are the victims of are actively malevolent. Perhaps it is surprising there is no "trickster" figure, then, in these religions.
     
    #5 exchemist, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  6. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    The trickster in the garden is us. Is in us. It is our own ego telling us that we are, or deserve to be, something that we're not. Namely; demigods. 'Creators' who imagine that the world and everything on it is supposed to be serving us. And when they do not, they should be 're-created', and made to do so.
     
    #6 PureX, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  7. thomas t

    thomas t non-JehovaWitness

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    ... at that moment. Maybe later they could have eaten from that tree, too.

    Personally, I read that knowledge as one allowing to discern between good and bad - as opposed to evil.
    They knew it was evil to taste from that tree.

    I agree with @PureX, man tried to trick - not God.
     
  8. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    I suppose as a Pagan I'd be more likely to interpret the story that way. I doubt that's a very Abrahamic way to interpret it though, so it'd be inappropriate to use in the context of their traditions.
     
  9. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    -according to the hebrew stories, the tree withered after eve plucked and ate...kind of a dead give away...like hey, that tree i told you not to eat, it dead and the fruit is gone...hmmmm.

    -if man tricked God, who engineered that and put those desires in their hearts?
    since the "word of god" says that it was God who put those desires in there to begin with, not you.
     
  10. thomas t

    thomas t non-JehovaWitness

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    God engineered nature.
    And human nature implies that you have certain desires.
    But it was up to them to make a decision if they give in to that desire when God didn't permit giving in to it.
    This is at least how I see the situation in the garden.
     
  11. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    and any multiple choice decision requires information,
    ask a lawyer about making a legal decision without weighing the options, consequence and risk,
    or without full disclosure on the other parties part
    and even with exhaustive research discovery and disclosure still consultants will say that this all is still only a partial picture of any situation, one still has that element of risk due to the great universe of unknowns....
    so we see an uninformed decision
    the brood of kids are all still suffering from a massive guilt complex over deceit which is intentional trickery with aforethought and malicious intention...
     
  12. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    By what the Bible tells, we can’t know that. It is possible that the serpent lied that the tree would give any knowledge. And it is possible that Adam and Eve could know good and evil objectively even without it. And actually, maybe good and evil can be known objectively only through God.
     
  13. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Where do you get the idea of first creation? I think first creation would be Jesus, because:

    in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…
    Colossians 1:14
     
  14. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    so he created himself then..... alrighty thanks for sharing that
     
  15. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Where did it lie?

    Well, then you have to decide if they did actually do anything wrong. Maybe it's not their fault

    Actually, I think that throughout the bible there might be a sort of recurring trickster element, though it's hard to flesh out the examples without having a good think on it. The sort of bit where jacob wrestles with god, or perhaps something about jonah going into a whale's belly, and other other things like that. Jesus himself, as a divine figure that looks like a man.

    That's sort of a Petersonion observation
     
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Genesis Chapter 3 is where the serpent undermined God's honesty and his sincerity by saying you shall surely not die if you eat that fruit. Furthermore the serpent said that they shall become as gods if they eat it. This is directly contrary to what God had warned and commanded.

    The result is the curse of the land, and mortality and death, not Godhood.

    It's a direct lie to Adam & Eve!

    Adam & Eve were faced with God and the serpent later on. So they had to make a choice based on experience. God's honesty, or the serpent's lie. God created Adam & Eve in honesty to be honest and free. God's test was fair!
     
  17. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Not if you believe the soul is immortal. The fruit doesn't change that at all. Which begs the question, what does the 'tree of life' even do

    Surely it didn't lie about us being able to think like gods either
     
    #17 ideogenous_mover, Sep 17, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  18. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    If they didn't eat of the tree then their souls would not die. Instead they would be immortal.

    So a mortal soul is cursed. An immortal soul they lost the opportunity.

    The Bible is myth though. I'm looking at the context of the story within the world of its characters.

    At one point I attempted to see The Bible as allegory in Divine myth. But the Bible ultimately doesn't justify its God's actions. It assumes God's righteousness without justifying God to the reader. Ultimately I found it inferior to good conscience.

    So I dropped it.
     
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  19. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    It never said that, I'm pretty sure. The soul is immortal with or without the fruit. It was only from the tree of knowledge that they ate , it's only about giving them new things to 'know.'

    It's sort of part of my spiritual canon , but just one part.
     
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  20. MNoBody

    MNoBody Well-Known Member

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    tree of lives, like the world tree of odin....rather than a literal tree as it is on earth
    adam and eve are mythological characters depicted in the heavens by the stars, and were never literal individuals, despite efforts to make them so.
     
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