The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

[loverOfTruth]

**Psssst! Hey Gang! Your first clue that this is all bowl spit comes from the fact that he thinks there was an "original."

Wow - is there a new group called 'Christians without the Bible' ?

 

[F0uad]

The revelation verse is taken out of context just saying... However i think you guys/girls have been to much off-topic.

 

[loverOfTruth]

as if the name actually proves anything. All religions feature submission to Deity as part of their paradigm.

So now everyone is a Muslim ?

 

[sojourner]

Wow - is there a new group called 'Christians without the Bible' ?

What does that have to do with the fact that there is no "original" bible?

 

[sojourner]

So now everyone is a Muslim ?

I knew you were going to say that. You can't help it, apparently.

No. what it means is that Islam is no more special, or "right," or privileged, or any other superlative, than any other religion. It's simply named for a characteristic that all religions share. You don't get to usurp that characteristic for yourselves, just because you happened to name your religion after that particular characteristic. it's not that "everyone is a Muslim," it's that you're really no different from anyone else in that regard.

 

[Kerr]

Let's read that verse again : ""If anyone desires a religion other than Islam , never will it be accepted of him..." (Al Qur'an 3:85)

Arabic states : 'Islami Deenan'

A 'religion' that is called 'Islam' - I don't know of any other religion named 'Submission to God' either. Better luck next time with your 2+2 =5 (for extremely higher value of 2) logic.

Sorry nothing other than Islam will be accepted as a RELIGION - no Bahai mentioned.

Other religions then Islam exist, you know. And they are just as valid as Islam and just as acceptable. After all, God has yet to come down and explicitly tell us which one is correct. And scripture doesnt count because everyone can make the claim that their religion is the right one through them.

EDIT:

And claiming other religions doesnt count as religions is just disrespectful and ignorant. Remember, you are talking to someone of a different religion then your own, so you cannot claim their faith doesnt make sense because of what your religion says.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Let's read that verse again : ""If anyone desires a religion other than Islam , never will it be accepted of him..." (Al Qur'an 3:85)

Arabic states : 'Islami Deenan'

A 'religion' that is called 'Islam' - I don't know of any other religion named 'Submission to God' either. Better luck next time with your 2+2 =5 (for extremely higher value of 2) logic.

Sorry nothing other than Islam will be accepted as a RELIGION - no Bahai mentioned.

Dear LoverofTruth,

Can you show me a verse, that says the next revelation from God, is not Baha'i?
Any time a revelation comes from God, who ever submittes to God, that is the True Submission. The verses are clear. Noah was a Submitter to God, not a Moslem by name. I hope you get 2+2=4.

Are you a worshipper of Name?

And If you remember the Hadith:


"The Apostle of God said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'"
- Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal
- Also, in Al-Bihar, by Al-Majlisi, Vol 13, Page 155
- Also, in Kanz Al-amal #766

The Prophet said, “If my (Ummah) Community keeps on the right, it is going to enjoy an age of one day, and if it becomes corrupt, it will have an age of half a day.” [Al-Munawī cites it in Fayd al-Qadīr from Shaykh Muhyī al-Dīn Ibn ‘Arabī.]​

They shall say in a low voice, one to another, - "Ye tarried but ten [century] on earth."
We are most knowing with respect to that which they will say when the most veracious of them will say. "Ye have not tarried above a day." (20:104)

"And one day according to Allah’s estimation is 1,000 years according to yours. "(Quran 22:47)​

So, what happens, when the end of an ummah comes? the answer is in Quran:​

"To every [Ummah] people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation). O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." Quran 7:34-35​

See how clearly the verses are within the context and after one another?​

And why should Allah change you? The answer is in this verse:​

“Lo! Ye are they, who are called to expend for the Cause of God: and some of you are niggards (stingy) but whoso is niggardly shall be niggard only to his own loss, for God is the rich and ye are the poor: and if ye turn back, he will change you for another people, and they shall not be your like!” Quran 47:38​

See how many verses show, your religion is not the last revelation? but Alas, our dear moslem friend only follow their religious leaders. What about Quran? Alas!

Try again dear....
I am still waiting for a verse or hadith that shows Quran is the Final revelation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So now everyone is a Muslim ?

See at the end, your last defence is to play with a word and stick with a name.
God is greater than what people imagine.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Let's read that verse again :
Sorry nothing other than Islam will be accepted as a RELIGION - no Bahai mentioned.

Are you saying God was not allowed to change the name of His Religion?
That's not Quranic. If you read Quran you will see:

"God annuls or confirms whatever He wills -for with Him is the source of all revelation." Quran 13:40

Sorry, God annuled Islam, and replaced it with Baha'i.

 

[F0uad]

Are you saying God was not allowed to change the name of His Religion?
That's not Quranic. If you read Quran you will see:

"God annuls or confirms whatever He wills -for with Him is the source of all revelation." Quran 13:40

Sorry, God annuled Islam, and replaced it with Baha'i.

According to Islam teachings there was never a name of religion except Islam hence even according to Jewish or Christian scripture those name never existed in the time lives of the prophets and messengers (peace be upon them). For example Adam(pbuh), Abraham(pbuh), Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) and all the other prophets peace be upon them all taught Islam according to Islamic scripture. Now are you assuming that God who didn't change the name starting from Adam(pbuh) suddenly changes it to Bahai?

 

[sojourner]

Adam(pbuh), Abraham(pbuh), Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) and all the other prophets peace be upon them all taught Islam according to Islamic scripture.

Your sense of religious entitlement is more than astounding. Thanks for the belly laugh.
None of these could have taught Islam according to Islamic scripture, because neither one existed at the time they were alive.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Dear LoverofTruth,

Can you show me a verse, that says the next revelation from God, is not Baha'i?
Any time a revelation comes from God, who ever submittes to God, that is the True Submission. The verses are clear. Noah was a Submitter to God, not a Moslem by name. I hope you get 2+2=4.

Are you a worshipper of Name?

Let's read that verse again : ""If anyone desires a religion other than Islam , never will it be accepted of him..." (Al Qur'an 3:85)
Allah sent all the messengers starting from Adam to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them all) with the message of Islam (Submission to God) and none of the messengers used the name of their Religion as is used today except for Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). For example, Jesus didn't preach Christianity - he never even used that word. So He basically preached Islam (Submission to God). However, Bahaullah preached the religion of Bahai(he gave that name) - so that(Bahai) is exclusively not accepted according to the above verse in the Qur'an. I am sorry but that is the plain and simple Truth.

And If you remember the Hadith:


"The Apostle of God said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'"
- Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal
- Also, in Al-Bihar, by Al-Majlisi, Vol 13, Page 155
- Also, in Kanz Al-amal #766

The Prophet said, “If my (Ummah) Community keeps on the right, it is going to enjoy an age of one day, and if it becomes corrupt, it will have an age of half a day.” [Al-Munawī cites it in Fayd al-Qadīr from Shaykh Muhyī al-Dīn Ibn ‘Arabī.]​

They shall say in a low voice, one to another, - "Ye tarried but ten [century] on earth."
We are most knowing with respect to that which they will say when the most veracious of them will say. "Ye have not tarried above a day." (20:104)

"And one day according to Allah’s estimation is 1,000 years according to yours. "(Quran 22:47)​

So, what happens, when the end of an ummah comes? the answer is in Quran:​

"To every [Ummah] people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation). O children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief." Quran 7:34-35​

See how clearly the verses are within the context and after one another?​

And why should Allah change you? The answer is in this verse:​

“Lo! Ye are they, who are called to expend for the Cause of God: and some of you are niggards (stingy) but whoso is niggardly shall be niggard only to his own loss, for God is the rich and ye are the poor: and if ye turn back, he will change you for another people, and they shall not be your like!” Quran 47:38​

See how many verses show, your religion is not the last revelation? but Alas, our dear moslem friend only follow their religious leaders. What about Quran? Alas!

Try again dear....

None of those verses show that Islam is not the last religion. Take the verse 47:38, for example - all that means is that Muslims who don't practice Islam properly will be replaced by better Muslims, which you can see is happening right in front of our very eyes - thousands of born Muslims have no clue about Islam and thousands of dedicated people in the West are converting to Islam. That's all there is to it. So Islam is the only one accepted and nothing will replace it. Once again, you didn't fail to use your 2+2=5 logic here. Keep trying.

I am still waiting for a verse or hadith that shows Quran is the Final revelation.

I have shown you clear verses from the Qur'an as well as Sahih Hadiths showing that. But unfortunately, you with your twisted logic of 2 + 2 = 5 will never see how 2+2=4.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I knew you were going to say that. You can't help it, apparently.

No. what it means is that Islam is no more special, or "right," or privileged, or any other superlative, than any other religion. It's simply named for a characteristic that all religions share. You don't get to usurp that characteristic for yourselves, just because you happened to name your religion after that particular characteristic. it's not that "everyone is a Muslim," it's that you're really no different from anyone else in that regard.

Forget about name - you don't even stick to the characteristic behind the name 'Submission to God'. You 'submit to Son of God' or 'Submit to God with partners'. So you should be the last person claiming any right to that name.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Are you saying God was not allowed to change the name of His Religion?
That's not Quranic. If you read Quran you will see:

"God annuls or confirms whatever He wills -for with Him is the source of all revelation." Quran 13:40

Sorry, God annuled Islam, and replaced it with Baha'i.

First of all, get your references right. It is verse 13:39 not 40. Now read the translation again :
"Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book."
So clearly it is talking about what is revealed to mankind(in the Qur'an) from what is in the Mother of the Book in Lawhe Mahfuz and nothing to do with replacing one scripture with another. Once again your 2+2=5 logic becomes apparent.

Didn't I mention - try harder ?

Not to mention how silly your argument is. God can do ANYTHING but does God do ANYTHING ? Does God go to the bathroom ? Can He ? God forbid. That is the stupidest defense I heard for the Bahaai.

 

[loverOfTruth]

What does that have to do with the fact that there is no "original" bible?

If there is no 'original bible' - what is the Bible - anything and everything that any Joe on the street decides to add to the book becomes Bible ? And you still want to follow that Book with Joe's writing to get eternal salvation ? Be my guest. So essentially your Bible is different from what most Christians take to be The Bible - hence the 'Christians without The Bible'.

 

[Lady B]

First of all, get your references right. It is verse 13:39 not 40. Now read the translation again :
"Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book."
So clearly it is talking about what is revealed to mankind(in the Qur'an) from what is in the Mother of the Book in Lawhe Mahfuz and nothing to do with replacing one scripture with another. Once again your 2+2=5 logic becomes apparent.

Didn't I mention - try harder ?

Not to mention how silly your argument is. God can do ANYTHING but does God do ANYTHING ? Does God go to the bathroom ? Can He ? God forbid. That is the stupidest defense I heard for the Bahaai.

I would go even further and say the silliness lies in supporting a claim using what the Koran did not say verses what it does say. Example " Well because The Koran did not specifically say the name of religion cannot be changed to Bahai'ism, It therefore did say it." This Is in noway proof That the Koran agrees with this Idea.This same Theology is used by Bahai's when interpreting the Bible. Because Christ did not specifically say his new name upon His return, Bahuallah cannot be ruled out as This new name of the second coming of Christ, therefore Christ prophesied Bahuallah. This is the most frustrating misuse of our Scriptures I have ever seen.:faint:

 

[sojourner]

If there is no 'original bible' - what is the Bible

The bible is the collected, written Tradition of the Jewish and Christian peoples, collected mainly from earlier, oral stories, poetry, songs, edicts. They are considered to be inspired by God, but no written by God. The bible is not one book, nor is it one story. It is a library. Therefore, there really is no "original," since all the books were written, collected, edited at different times.

anything and everything that any Joe on the street decides to add to the book becomes Bible ?

You're being obtuse. The books that comprise the Xtian canon had to pass a litmus test for authenticity, as having come from an apostle, or a direct descendent/student.

And you still want to follow that Book with Joe's writing to get eternal salvation ? Be my guest.

The bible does not impart salvation. We don't "follow" it to "get salvation." God saves, and we follow Jesus, who is God-Made-Flesh.

So essentially your Bible is different from what most Christians take to be The Bible

"Most Xtians" don't "take the bible" any differently.

hence the 'Christians without The Bible'.

But we do have the bible. We produced it, we read it, we study it, we revere it.

Your argument is less than paper thin.

 

[sojourner]

Forget about name

You brought it up -- not me. Now you want to forget about it? Cool!
Your argument loses. Thanks!

you don't even stick to the characteristic behind the name 'Submission to God'.

A baseless accusation. Of course we submit to God.

You 'submit to Son of God' or 'Submit to God with partners'.

Nope. We submit to God.

So you should be the last person claiming any right to that name.

Your faulty premise has led you to this faulty conclusion -- which you just said to "forget about."

I win.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I would go even further and say the silliness lies in supporting a claim using what the Koran did not say verses what it does say. Example " Well because The Koran did not specifically say the name of religion cannot be changed to Bahai'ism, It therefore did say it." This Is in noway proof That the Koran agrees with this Idea.This same Theology is used by Bahai's when interpreting the Bible. Because Christ did not specifically say his new name upon His return, Bahuallah cannot be ruled out as This new name of the second coming of Christ, therefore Christ prophesied Bahuallah. This is the most frustrating misuse of our Scriptures I have ever seen.:faint:

Yes, and there's millions of other things that our scriptures don't say. But He ignores what it clearly says.

 

[loverOfTruth]

The bible is the collected, written Tradition of the Jewish and Christian peoples, collected mainly from earlier, oral stories, poetry, songs, edicts. They are considered to be inspired by God, but no written by God. The bible is not one book, nor is it one story. It is a library. Therefore, there really is no "original," since all the books were written, collected, edited at different times.

You're being obtuse. The books that comprise the Xtian canon had to pass a litmus test for authenticity, as having come from an apostle, or a direct descendent/student.

The bible does not impart salvation. We don't "follow" it to "get salvation." God saves, and we follow Jesus, who is God-Made-Flesh.

"Most Xtians" don't "take the bible" any differently.

But we do have the bible. We produced it, we read it, we study it, we revere it.

Your argument is less than paper thin.

Now all of a sudden you turn into a Bible man :clap