The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

[England my lionheart]

*edit*

Is that for arguments sake?,please tell us about the rationality and logic of Islam.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Yes it is. I have no problem with your numbers besides the fact that I believe in Islam a new birth is counted as a convert. Besides that there are many things after I started to think about this a bit that make numbers illusory. Having higher numbers may not mean you are getting a higher percentage when adjusted for population growth. The fact that you have x number of new recruits does not mean you do not have a higher yield of people that oppose a religion. In short statistics concerning this issue after more thought are extremely pliable. The reason I stopped discussing the issue is I felt like you were getting hostile and defensive. I am not sure if that estimation is correct. Fri for some reason I had very little patience and may have over estimated the emotion in your replies.
My original question was something along the lines that since the fairly recent uptick in Islamic terrorism I did not see how it would be possible for Muhammad to be thought greater today than in years past. I still don't, as even Europe has begun pushing back against them. This isn't Europe’s first experience with Islam encroachment.
I guess you supplied as well as could be what I asked for and so I will not add anything further.

You never fail to amaze me but the unfactual and baseless claims you keep making only reduces your credibility. But of course you have the free will and the ability to keep doing what you are doing. There's nothing I can do about that other than trying to provide you with the factual information from credible unbiased sources.

If you read the statistics I quoted form Guinness World Records, you should clearly see that it states '935 million people were Muslims and this figure had escalated to around 1.2 billion by 2000' and 'approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity'. So they clearly distinguish between the increase in total number of Muslims(which will include new borns from Muslim family and such) and the new people Converting to Islam. Plus, I don't know who in their right mind would consider new borns in the Converted category - I don't know where you come up with those claims. Moreover, according to the Islamic belief every child is born a Muslim(because they are innocent NOT sinners and are in complete submission to God Almighty) - so either way they won't be counted towards Converts because they ARE already Muslims.

Once again Peace to you.

 

[1robin]

You never fail to amaze me but the unfactual and baseless claims you keep making only reduces your credibility. But of course you have the free will and the ability to keep doing what you are doing. There's nothing I can do about that other than trying to provide you with the factual information from credible unbiased sources.

The reader’s digest and the Guinness book of world records are anything but scholarly journals. Your incessant personal comments do more damage to your credibility than mine.

If you read the statistics I quoted form Guinness World Records, you should clearly see that it states '935 million people were Muslims and this figure had escalated to around 1.2 billion by 2000'

I have had three college level statistics courses and know very well that statistics are remarkably hard to get accurate and are easily warped. For example:
1. The study you mention ended in 2000 right before the diabolical twin towers nonsense. It does not include all the animosity that Islam earned as a result. I am not saying that Islam as a whole is responsible for that act never the less it as a whole, suffered a loss of influence for it and all the subsequent acts of terrorism.
2. How was the determination made for what constitutes a conversion? It is impossible to directly determine whether every single person is a convert or not. It is derived from other statistics. I cannot find any statistics that would allow any accurate number to be established for people that literally chose Islam.
3. It would be necessary to show how this was determined. I looked for what was used for the Guinness book of world records and could not find a single fact concerning where they got their numbers.
4. What methods are employed to gain converts? For example Islam spends a lot of time converting people who are in jail or who are in desperate circumstances. It is much easier to convert a desperate person than a content one. 80% of US prison conversions are to Islam. Christians easily converted Indians for many years in India specifically because of an oppressive caste system.
High rate of conversions to Islam
In addition to immigration, the state, federal and local prisons of the United States may be a contributor to the growth of Islam in the country. J. Michael Waller claims that Muslim inmates comprise 17-20% of the prison population in New York, or roughly 350,000 inmates in 2003. He also claims that 80% of the prisoners who "find faith" while in prison convert to Islam.[1] These converted inmates are mostly African American, with a small but growing Hispanic minority. Waller also asserts that many converts are radicalized by outside Islamist groups linked to terrorism, but other experts suggest that when radicalization does occur it has little to no connection with these outside interests
Conversion to Islam in U.S. prisons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
5. What is needed for conversion? For example Zoroaster’s at one point did not even allow conversion. Islam simply requires an intellectual consent to the ideology. Which do you think would have more? Christianity is the most exclusive. It requires an actual experience with God from every true convert.
6. Is a religion culturally expected? Where ever Islam is the dominant political force it puts extreme pressure to convert on the population. Christianity does not or at least has not for hundreds of years. In fact in the Quran you must either convert or pay a tax and assume a second class status.
7. Other factors that affect conversion. A Christian can convert to Islam in any country on earth and will not loose anything besides his soul. However a Muslim in a most Muslim countries risks death if he converts to Christianity. If you can't see that these issues make huge differences it is because you do not want to.

In professional statistics papers the term RATE TO TOTAL GROWTH is what is used to indicate conversions. I did not see that nor any other scholarly methods or terms in these claims. It is total growth minus natural growth and the comparison percentage.

I could keep going but as you can see some statistics are very hard to draw any meaning from.

Plus, I don't know who in their right mind would consider new borns in the Converted category.

Assuming people are making decisions that are always logical and reasonable is to assume the impossible especially concerning statistics. For example the two latest polls concerning our presidential election over sampled democrats in two swing states by 5% and 10%. Statistics are rampant with bias and bad scholarship. I could not find anything that would indicate that new borns were not included. As I have said they can't directly question all these people and so are getting the info from other statistics of some kind. The most logical place is to look is at the difference of adherents at one point and subtract the previous number from it. That is the only possible way (that I could find) that these numbers can be established. If you claim otherwise please post the information.
The below is what I found when I searched for Islamic conversion. It includes new borns.
Islam
A newly converted Muslim is called a Muallaf. There are five pillars, or foundations, of Islam but the primary, and most important is to believe that there is only one God and creator, referred to as Allah (the word for the name of God in Arabic) and that the Islamic prophet, Muhammad, is His last and final messenger. A person is considered to have converted to Islam from the moment he or she sincerely makes this declaration of faith, called the shahadah. Islam teaches that everyone is Muslim at birth because every child that is born has a natural inclination to goodness and to worship the one true God alone, but his or her parents or society can cause him or her to deviate from the straight path. When someone accepts Islam he/she is considered to revert to his/her original condition. While conversion to Islam is among its most supported tenets, conversion from Islam to another religion is considered to be the sin of apostasy, and under some interpretations and in some jurisdictions is subject to the penalty of death.
Religious conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so either way they won't be counted towards Converts because they ARE already Muslims.

I disagree with your determination but it is the right of your religion to make it. They did not exist as Muslim stats before they were born. Then afterwards they were included. If you had only two Muslims in 1980 and they had a Child then there would be three in 1981. It is very reasonable to think some pop culture magazine or study would subtract 2 from 3 and claim Islam grew by 50% over the year of 1980 and might very well consider that a conversion. I do not know what the case here is for sure, but I am leaning towards the inclusion of births. Until you can demonstrate otherwise, I can't help but find those stats suspicious. The same way any stats I post are completely dismissed by you without any effort or explanation.

 

[loverOfTruth]

The reader’s digest and the Guinness book of world records are anything but scholarly journals. Your incessant personal comments do more damage to your credibility than mine.
I have had three college level statistics courses and know very well that statistics are remarkably hard to get accurate and are easily warped. For example:
1. The study you mention ended in 2000 right before the diabolical twin towers nonsense. It does not include all the animosity that Islam earned as a result. I am not saying that Islam as a whole is responsible for that act never the less it as a whole, suffered a loss of influence for it and all the subsequent acts of terrorism.
2. How was the determination made for what constitutes a conversion? It is impossible to directly determine whether every single person is a convert or not. It is derived from other statistics. I cannot find any statistics that would allow any accurate number to be established for people that literally chose Islam.
3. It would be necessary to show how this was determined. I looked for what was used for the Guinness book of world records and could not find a single fact concerning where they got their numbers.
4. What methods are employed to gain converts? For example Islam spends a lot of time converting people who are in jail or who are in desperate circumstances. It is much easier to convert a desperate person than a content one. 80% of US prison conversions are to Islam. Christians easily converted Indians for many years in India specifically because of an oppressive caste system.
High rate of conversions to Islam
In addition to immigration, the state, federal and local prisons of the United States may be a contributor to the growth of Islam in the country. J. Michael Waller claims that Muslim inmates comprise 17-20% of the prison population in New York, or roughly 350,000 inmates in 2003. He also claims that 80% of the prisoners who "find faith" while in prison convert to Islam.[1] These converted inmates are mostly African American, with a small but growing Hispanic minority. Waller also asserts that many converts are radicalized by outside Islamist groups linked to terrorism, but other experts suggest that when radicalization does occur it has little to no connection with these outside interests
Conversion to Islam in U.S. prisons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
5. What is needed for conversion? For example Zoroaster’s at one point did not even allow conversion. Islam simply requires an intellectual consent to the ideology. Which do you think would have more? Christianity is the most exclusive. It requires an actual experience with God from every true convert.
6. Is a religion culturally expected? Where ever Islam is the dominant political force it puts extreme pressure to convert on the population. Christianity does not or at least has not for hundreds of years. In fact in the Quran you must either convert or pay a tax and assume a second class status.
7. Other factors that affect conversion. A Christian can convert to Islam in any country on earth and will not loose anything besides his soul. However a Muslim in a most Muslim countries risks death if he converts to Christianity. If you can't see that these issues make huge differences it is because you do not want to.

In professional statistics papers the term RATE TO TOTAL GROWTH is what is used to indicate conversions. I did not see that nor any other scholarly methods or terms in these claims. It is total growth minus natural growth and the comparison percentage.

I could keep going but as you can see some statistics are very hard to draw any meaning from.

Assuming people are making decisions that are always logical and reasonable is to assume the impossible especially concerning statistics. For example the two latest polls concerning our presidential election over sampled democrats in two swing states by 5% and 10%. Statistics are rampant with bias and bad scholarship. I could not find anything that would indicate that new borns were not included. As I have said they can't directly question all these people and so are getting the info from other statistics of some kind. The most logical place is to look is at the difference of adherents at one point and subtract the previous number from it. That is the only possible way (that I could find) that these numbers can be established. If you claim otherwise please post the information.
The below is what I found when I searched for Islamic conversion. It includes new borns.
Islam
A newly converted Muslim is called a Muallaf. There are five pillars, or foundations, of Islam but the primary, and most important is to believe that there is only one God and creator, referred to as Allah (the word for the name of God in Arabic) and that the Islamic prophet, Muhammad, is His last and final messenger. A person is considered to have converted to Islam from the moment he or she sincerely makes this declaration of faith, called the shahadah. Islam teaches that everyone is Muslim at birth because every child that is born has a natural inclination to goodness and to worship the one true God alone, but his or her parents or society can cause him or her to deviate from the straight path. When someone accepts Islam he/she is considered to revert to his/her original condition. While conversion to Islam is among its most supported tenets, conversion from Islam to another religion is considered to be the sin of apostasy, and under some interpretations and in some jurisdictions is subject to the penalty of death.
Religious conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I disagree with your determination but it is the right of your religion to make it. They did not exist as Muslim stats before they were born. Then afterwards they were included. If you had only two Muslims in 1980 and they had a Child then there would be three in 1981. It is very reasonable to think some pop culture magazine or study would subtract 2 from 3 and claim Islam grew by 50% over the year of 1980 and might very well consider that a conversion. I do not know what the case here is for sure, but I am leaning towards the inclusion of births. Until you can demonstrate otherwise, I can't help but find those stats suspicious. The same way any stats I post are completely dismissed by you without any effort or explanation.

Talk about being defensive . Now you are going to teach statistics to people who does this for a living (i.e. Guinness World Records)? And once again your statements reflect that you do not understand the distinction between the increase in Muslim population vs. the increase of Converts or you choose to ignore it anyway. With that I'll end this topic stating all you have is speculations and unsupported claims where I presented statistics from unbiased credible sources.

Peace.

 

[1robin]

Talk about being defensive . Now you are going to teach statistics to people who does this for a living (i.e. Guinness World Records)? And once again your statements reflect that you do not understand the distinction between the increase in Muslim population vs. the increase of Converts or you choose to ignore it anyway. With that I'll end this topic stating all you have is speculations and unsupported claims where I presented statistics from unbiased credible sources.

Peace.

Apparently you have no background in statistical analysis or probability and no desire to learn. Since you have given up instead of show that your statistics are gathered in a reliable manner or that the ones I have posted and more I could provide, are any less accurate and as this is not the core issue of this thread I will comment no further. Yes I did address far more exhaustively than did your sources or you what is involved with conversion rates verses what is called natural growth in these studies. All I can do is post it, I can't force anyone to understand it.

 

[FearGod]

Apparently you have no background in statistical analysis or probability and no desire to learn. Since you have given up instead of show that your statistics are gathered in a reliable manner or that the ones I have posted and more I could provide, are any less accurate and as this is not the core issue of this thread I will comment no further. Yes I did address far more exhaustively than did your sources or you what is involved with conversion rates verses what is called natural growth in these studies. All I can do is post it, I can't force anyone to understand it.

So are they just kidding in the news.

[youtube]8MpbSGPrnR0[/youtube]
Islam The Fastest Growing Religion In Britain - Over 100,000+ Reverts - WATCH IN 1080p HD - YouTube

 

[1robin]

So are they just kidding in the news.

[youtube]8MpbSGPrnR0[/youtube]
Islam The Fastest Growing Religion In Britain - Over 100,000+ Reverts - WATCH IN 1080p HD - YouTube

I can't watch videos on this server. It is DOD. Please post the methods by which they gather these numbers of any study you choose. I can find many sites that had data that say the opposite. You will reject them all. I can make statistics say anything. I do not even care if Islam is the fastest growing. God has always had a remnant. There are no supermajorities in the Bible. I do however have experience with bad stats and am mainly just curious. Please supply the sampling methods and criteria behind any study you choose. Or please supply some stats by a reputable statistical firm or university project. If they are as you say then you should be tripping over them and be able to explain how they were arrived at. It probably stinks being on the other side of obsessive demands for proof or the death of a thousand qualifications for once but you can manage I am sure. I always have to when debateing Muslims. I am only usually suspicious of statistics and do not normally reject sources.

 

[Flankerl]

RussiaToday is most certainly a credible source.

 

[1robin]

*edit*

I never said Christians were not guilty of this. In fact I am sure they are. I have no idea to what extent. The point was for major areas of statistical data (of which this is one) that without the methods used to determine the numbers they are useless. There are many many ways to make statistics look like anything you wish. I think in this case it was not intentional but done in a way that makes the data useless anyway. I have done statistics studies in several college classes. Have you? It is a very well known and meaningfull issue.

*edit*

I have added I feel, IMO, or the Bible says to many claims at the suggestion of the moderators to eliminate a chance of being accused of being sarcastic or preaching. That is what is appealed to by people who can't actually counter a point, they give up and yell unfair or appeal to sympathy. I do not really care what you want to read or not. Do or do not I do not care and further do not care what the reasing is. Either back the statistics up or not.

 

[Debater Slayer]

***Staff Advisory***

Thread closed for Staff review.
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[Badran]

***Mod post***

Thread re-opened.​

 

[al-amiyr]

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Thread re-opened.​

Thanks because I will be back here soon to answer many questions inshaa allaah if God had willed (the time). I hope that related matters can be discussed in a respectful manner.

 

[the_thinker]

The verse from Quran that you quoted, does not say Muhammad is the Last of the Prophets. The word in the verse is "KhatAm" which was a device used to seal or stamp a document to confirm or used as an ornamant on a ring.

The early Moslems did not believe, there will never be another Prophet after Muhammad.

Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states:

"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him."

Also, it is recorded that 'Khatamul Auliya means 'Seal of the believers - a title bestowed upon Ali by Muhammad. Which does not mean Ali was the final believer.
So the word "KhatAm" does not necessarily mean the Last.
Should Allah wanted to close every door to another revelation, He would say that with no way to interpret differently, so, no false prophet could claim.




The intention of Hadithes is also to say no Prophet or Messenger untill Mahdi. Another interpretation of Hadith is that within the Islamic Period, there would not come any prophets, but only Khalifs. (and this indeed happend, only khalifs came)

According to Islamic Traditions, the period of people of Muhammad is 1000 years, and after that Mahdi comes. This period is already passed.

Just to add to this, the word Khatam also means to conclude and to terminate, so prophethood has been concluded with Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon him)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Just to add to this, the word Khatam also means to conclude and to terminate, so prophethood has been concluded with Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon him)

Dear thinker,

The Word KhAtam, does not mean to conclude or terminate in Arabic. It is not a verb. It is a noun. The word KhatEm in Arabic means the Ender.
KhatAm means "seal". it was a device which was used like a stamp, to seal a document to confirm it.
However, the word may have also been used symbolically to mean "Last" just as it was used to mean "Ornament". So, it has multiple meanings. Therefore to know which interpretation is intended, we need to know the Taweel of the verse.

If we want to follow exactly what Quran says, we need to ponder on verse 3:7
The Verse 3:7 says that only God knows its (Taweel) interpretations.
Taweel is different from Tafseer. Taweel means to interpret a verse when there is a word which can have multiple meanings. Prophet Muhammad did not leave a Taweel. There are only Tafseers that are attributed to Muhammad.

Anyways, this subject in details is not related to this thread.

 

[the_thinker]

Dear thinker,

The Word KhAtam, does not mean to conclude or terminate in Arabic. It is not a verb. It is a noun. The word KhatEm in Arabic means the Ender.
KhatAm means "seal". it was a device which was used like a stamp, to seal a document to confirm it.
However, the word may have also been used symbolically to mean "Last" just as it was used to mean "Ornament". So, it has multiple meanings. Therefore to know which interpretation is intended, we need to know the Taweel of the verse.

If we want to follow exactly what Quran says, we need to ponder on verse 3:7
The Verse 3:7 says that only God knows its (Taweel) interpretations.
Taweel is different from Tafseer. Taweel means to interpret a verse when there is a word which can have multiple meanings. Prophet Muhammad did not leave a Taweel. There are only Tafseers that are attributed to Muhammad.

Anyways, this subject in details is not related to this thread.

Yes thanks for that please correct me if I am wrong.

What I was referring to in my previous post was the various applicable meanings to its roots: kh ta miym which has meanings like: to seal, to stamp, to imprint, to conclude,to terminate, etc... and many more.(sorry for not being specific previously).

So when the verse uses the word khatam, in addition to "the seal", isn't it also correctly to say "the terminator", "the concluder", etc...?
And why would you take the word "Last" as symbolically and not literally?

Or shall we continue elsewhere? )(

 

[loverOfTruth]

Just to add to this, the word Khatam also means to conclude and to terminate, so prophethood has been concluded with Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon him)

Not to forget that according to Hadith, the Prophet actually had a physical 'seal' of 'prophethood' between his shoulder blades by which others recognized him to be a True prophet.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189:
Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:

My aunt took me to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! This son of my sister has got a disease in his legs." So he passed his hands on my head and prayed for Allah's blessings for me; then he performed ablution and I drank from the remaining water. I stood behind him and saw the seal of Prophethood between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.)


Sahih Muslim
Book 030, Number 5793
Abdullah b. Sarjis reported: I saw Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and ate with him bread and meat, or he said Tharid (bread soaked in soup). I said to him: Did Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) seek forgiveness for you? He said: Yes, and for you, and he then recited this verse: "Ask forgiveness for thy sin and for the believing men and believing women" (xlvii. 19). I then went after him and saw the Seal of Prophethood between his shoulders on the left side of his shoulder having spots on it like moles.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes thanks for that please correct me if I am wrong.

What I was referring to in my previous post was the various applicable meanings to its roots: kh ta miym which has meanings like: to seal, to stamp, to imprint, to conclude,to terminate, etc... and many more.(sorry for not being specific previously).

So when the verse uses the word khatam, in addition to "the seal", isn't it also correctly to say "the terminator", "the concluder", etc...?
And why would you take the word "Last" as symbolically and not literally?

Or shall we continue elsewhere? )(

Dear Thinker,

Please note that there is a Word KhatEm and there is another word KhatAm.
KhatEm literally means "the terminator", "the concluder", but khatAm literally does not mean "the terminator" or "concluder".
You cannot say, Muhammad was literally a stamp or a seal of the Prophets.
This is like to say, Muhammad was the light of the World. Or God is the light of earth and Heaven.
The meaning is not that literally God is light made of photones. it means He is the guidance. Light is the symbol of guidance. darkness is the symbol of error.

It could be that both KhatAm and Khatem be from the same root, however,
Using what roots they come from does not proof that this is what was intended.
Unless the word in that verse was actually khatEm (which is not)
KhatAm literally means a stamp or a seal in the old times. However it was used as a symbol for high station.
Moreover, please note verse 3:7, and ponder on it.
Also, there are other verses in Quran that can be seen as a promise of furure revelations, which I had refered to them in this thread as well as puting links.
The fact is, you cannot prove based on Quran or Hadithes Islam is the final revelation. And to say, God indeed wanted to close up future revelations, but did not say it clear enough, is a weak reasoning in my opinion.
Moreover, Baha'i Faith has enough proofs that another revelation came from God.
For more discussions we can continue
In this thread:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/136643-signs-end-bahai-view-19.html

 

[FearGod]

Dear Thinker,

Please note that there is a Word KhatEm and there is another word KhatAm.
KhatEm literally means "the terminator", "the concluder", but khatAm literally does not mean "the terminator" or "concluder".
You cannot say, Muhammad was literally a stamp or a seal of the Prophets.
This is like to say, Muhammad was the light of the World. Or God is the light of earth and Heaven.
The meaning is not that literally God is light made of photones. it means He is the guidance. Light is the symbol of guidance. darkness is the symbol of error.

It could be that both KhatAm and Khatem be from the same root, however,
Using what roots they come from does not proof that this is what was intended.
Unless the word in that verse was actually khatEm (which is not)
KhatAm literally means a stamp or a seal in the old times. However it was used as a symbol for high station.
Moreover, please note verse 3:7, and ponder on it.
Also, there are other verses in Quran that can be seen as a promise of furure revelations, which I had refered to them in this thread as well as puting links.
The fact is, you cannot prove based on Quran or Hadithes Islam is the final revelation. And to say, God indeed wanted to close up future revelations, but did not say it clear enough, is a weak reasoning in my opinion.
Moreover, Baha'i Faith has enough proofs that another revelation came from God.
For more discussions we can continue
In this thread:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/136643-signs-end-bahai-view-19.html

The last sermon of the prophet Mohammed pbuh which have been witnessed by thousands prove and confirm that he is the last messenger.

O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.

i think that is already off topic so better if you discuss it in a separate thread.

 

[Dag101]

The Bible warns us that many false prophets will come after Jesus Christ for example in the following chapter:
Mat 24:3-5,10-11 "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus answered, "Watch out that no one deceives you, for many will come in my name,.. At that time many will turn away from the faith... and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people."

As well as this why is it that your prophet Muhammad never once stated in the Qu'ran that he was the way to Allah

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The last sermon of the prophet Mohammed pbuh which have been witnessed by thousands prove and confirm that he is the last messenger.

O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.

i think that is already off topic so better if you discuss it in a separate thread.

Dear FearGod,

I had already addressed this Hadith, in this thread a while ago. Please refer to it.
Moreover, you may find farther discussion in post #186 here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/136643-signs-end-bahai-view-19.html

Also, If you can, please post the Arabic version. I am very interested in original Arabic Words of this Sermon. Specially the part you have quoted. Thank you.