InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
I am not sure if I understood you correctly. You don't mean, Quran has the same reliability that Hadithes have, do you?
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The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World
- Thread starter al-amiyr
- Start date
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
No, that's not what I mean. I mean that they have to be equally vetted regardless of what the matter is and there will be some subjective opinions as to if a person is reliable or not. That's were written evidences and multiple witnesses would bring strength to the argument.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Ok, this is one way to look at it. I am not sure if the Suffis view it like this. I see in Wikipidia, they are shown as a separate sect, but not under Sunnis, and Shias.
But anyways, It does not matter, for the discussion about Hadithes.
What I mean is that, For example, majority of Suffis believe in certain Hadithes, that as far as I know, the Majority of Sunnis do not believe. For example, the Hadith, "I am He, and He is I...." you can see the source of the Hadith from my other posts in this thread.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Has anyone in this thread actualy shown that Muhammad's greateness is growing in the world?
I would seriously doubt that it is with all the terrorism in the news daily. I had never heard of him until I was twenty. Everything I have heard since has been to lower his greatness. Maybe it is different in other areas.
I would seriously doubt that it is with all the terrorism in the news daily. I had never heard of him until I was twenty. Everything I have heard since has been to lower his greatness. Maybe it is different in other areas.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Here you at it again ... I guess you had been reading the wrong newspapers.
So let me shed some light for you on this matter.
The fact that western people are converting to Islam in droves is a testament to the fact of growing greatness of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). No body would convert to a new religion unless they thought that not only is the religion(Islam) itself is the Greatest but also the one(Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)) who preached this religion to be the Greatest man to ever walk on this earth. Let me give you some evidences for my claim :
* Testimonials of people from all walks of life accepting Islam in the West :
The Deen Show
100,000 Islam converts living in UK: White women most keen to embrace Muslim faith | Mail Online
* 267 Stories of New Muslims(including men, women, preists, famous personalities) :
Category: Stories of New Muslims - The Religion of Islam
* Educated western women accepting Islam :
Like Lauren Booth, why ARE modern British career women converting to Islam? | Mail Online
[youtube]mbKqqai1V-c[/youtube]
Western women converting to Islam-Women's World-12-28-2011 - YouTube
* IVY League educated American Atheist converted to Islam
Level-Truth - The Official Dr. Laurence Brown Website
* Recent Christian Ministers' conversion story
Joshua Evans : [youtube]IYMKQKSV0bY[/youtube]
How the Bible Led Me to Islam: The Story of a Former Christian Youth Minister - Joshua Evans - YouTube
Dr. Jerald Dirks : [youtube]dOZSrPF5GNo[/youtube]
A Christian Minister's Conversion to Islam - Dr. Jerald Dirks on TheDeenShow (Part 1) - YouTube
But the problem with people like you is : "...They have hearts wherewith they understand not, they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth)... " (Al-Qur'an 7:179)
Anyway, Peace.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Showing that you have new converts does not equal either your religion is true or that Muhammad's world opinion is greater now than 200 years ago. Christianity is growing faster than Islam last time I checked and we do not count new borns in the figures nor have a 9 - 1 birth ratio. Nor do we threaten leaving the religion with punishement as Islam does in many case, nor make it a state run system that enforces compliance. Those are things done to keep people from leaving. I can post the same and probably far more claims about people in Muslim countries converting to Christianity even though many times they risk death to do so but I unlike you realise that does not prove anything. I wanted to know is Muhammad's current approval rating increasing everyday as a whole. That is what this thread claims and so should be known and evidence available. Here is some stats anyway so you do not say I was bluffing. Total adherents
New from conversion
Number of adherents to make one new convert:
Muslims
1,188,242,789
865,558
1,372
Christians
1,999,563,838
2,501,396
799
235% Growth rate? Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the world
This will derail the thread so please post the stats I asked for and I will drop it.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Once again you come up with your biased sources. Are you really that ignorant ? You want me to accept your statistics from 'World Christian Encyclopedia' ?
"An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, yearbook 1986, gives the statistics of the increase of the percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in The Plain Truth magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, while Christianity had increased by 47%. During this fifty-year period, there was no “Islamic conquest” yet Islam spread at an extraordinary rate."
Not only that. According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year:
“Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion. In 1990, 935 million people were Muslims and this figure had escalated to around 1.2 billion by 2000, meaning that around one in five people follow Islam. Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity” (Guinness World Records 2003, pg 102)
So, Islam is the fastest growing religion as recognized by unbiased non-muslim sources for a while(as shown above). As Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is the face of Islam and Islam is nothing without Him - the highest growth rate of Islam is the stamp of increasing approval rating of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
I do not expect a Muslim to accept anything that is not convenient to them. They are the only group that consistently rejects info by whether the like a site or not. I have never once rejected a site even if I didn't like it. It is a copout. Bad sites can post good info and good sites bad info.
I am familiar as many people are with that study. You question my sources and then give readers digest as a competant authority. I do not reject them but you should have if you consistently evaluated sources.
Muslim's claim that their growth rate is 235 percent and 47 percent for Christianity. This statistic came from the Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983, and represents 235 percent increase over 50 years. A simple review of the readers Digest study shows that the growth rate of Islam vs. Christianity is directly linked to the birth rate in Third World countries where Islam dominates and not actual conversions to each religion. Christianity has always been larger than Islam. These statistics from Readers Digest are over 20 years old. Further, we do not consider readers digest to be an authority on such matters. Why will Muslims not quote real authoritative statistics from certified research groups who show Islam is not the fastest growing religion in 3/4's of the worlds countries.
235% Growth rate? Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the world
Muslims tend to still have large families, while Catholics are having much smaller families. Of course if all Christians are considered together, they make up 33 percent of the world’s population, or about 2 billion people. By contrast, there are around 1.3 billion Muslims in the world today.
Islam and Christianity: Looking at the Numbers » Bill Muehlenberg’s CultureWatch
The truth is, there has recently been a tsunami of Muslim converts to Christianity.
In a recent article Andrew Walden offers some amazing statistics: “In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Every day, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Every year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity.” These are some remarkable figures indeed.
We can both post stats all day. The fact is even if yours were right that the issue of the numbers is far from clear.
1. Muslims are Muslims at birth and counted as such.
2. Muslims have children at more the twice the rate as Christians. (Even though they are usually born into cruel poverty)
3. Christians are only considered Christians in the stats when they actually convert.
4. In many places a Muslim risks death or harsh punishment for leaving Islam. Vast numbers stay Muslim just to avoid death and never cared about Islam.
5. A Muslim in an Islamic country risks death if he wants to convert to Christianity.
6. A Christian in a western country risks nothing but his soul if he wants to convert.
7. Islam is a cultural and many times a state institution with police that enforce compliance.
8. Since Islam is far smaller than Christianity then even if it had approx half the number convert than Christianity did it would appear to be growing faster even though Christ gor twice as many converts.
So your numbers are completely meaningless even if higher which I reject.
According to a Pew study conducted in October of 2009 Muslims number 2454 in the US which represents only 0.8% of the US religious make-up. This is about 1/3 of what is often claimed or accepted by apologists and MSM. Further, according to research conducted by American Muslim Dr. Ilyas Ba-Yunus 75% of new Muslim converts in the US leave Islam within a few years! Apostates in Islam will rarely admit they have left the faith for fear of being killed and Muslim nations do NOT acknowledge people who leave Islam in their statistics.
The MSM and Muslims can claim anything they wish but the claim itself does not make it true. Statistics must back up the claim to make it true and in the case of Islam being the fastest growing religion in the US and World those statistics DO NOT support the claim!
See: Fastest Growing Religion - WikiIslam
Don’t be fooled by all of the propaganda. The FACTS show that Islam is NOT the fastest growing religion on the face of the planet or in the USA. We must look at the statistics and STOP believing just because someone says something it must be so. THINK! EDUCATE YOURSELF!! STOP BEING A MINDLESS DRONE!!
Islam is NOT the Fastest Growing Religion!! | Lorinov's Blog
I DO NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED WITH A SITE DENIAL SATISTICS WAR. Claiming that Islam is growing does not mean that the people not in Islam are not rejecting him at a higher rate. It is not demonstratable. Before I derail the thread I will terminate the issue.
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loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Because evangelical Christians are the only people who come with the false lies and then quote from those sources to fabricate lies against Islam. It is not about convenience at all. I can come up with hundreds of Muslim websites claiming this and that but that would not be Unbiased and Impartial to most sensible people. Similarly Evangelical Christian sources are not Unbiased and Impartial to me. But unfortunately, that's all you got under your hat
. Once again check who Andrew Walden is - the first person who claimed Obama is a Muslim - that's the level of ignorance of the sources you quote from. I don't know of any practicing Muslim let alone knowledgeable Muslim converting to Christianity. The only ones I know are the poor in the third world countries who are wooed by the christian missionaries in return for help and may be some who never knew what Islam is in the first place. Even then numbers do not even compare to the educated western Christians and others who are converting to Islam.
Read what I have quoted again. Those factors that you state have nothing to do with it at all - it is talking about NUMBER (not percentage) of CONVERSIONs (NOT TOTAL INCREASE IN MUSLIM DEMOGRAPHICS).
According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year:
“Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion. In 1990, 935 million people were Muslims and this figure had escalated to around 1.2 billion by 2000, meaning that around one in five people follow Islam. Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity” (Guinness World Records 2003, pg 102)
What BS, you come up with.
It is sad that after failing to disprove that Islam is the Fastest growing religion with the most number of new converts, now you are making yet another failed/unsupported attempt to show that those new Muslims are leaving Islam. It is really a sad state of affairs for you. Unfortunately, you are too ignorant and easily brainwashed by the hate filled Islamophobic machine. You are the one in need of real education - which is only possible when you can stop reading from those anti-Islam evangelical christian sources and at least read what most of the world considers SENSIBLE.
Islam is the Fastest Growing Religion as it stands today and at the end it shall prevail regardless of how evil and hateful the plan of those anti-Muslim bigots are.
"And indeed it has already been revealed to you (The Prophet) and to the ones before you: "Indeed in case you associate (other gods with Allah), indeed your deeds will definitely be frustrated and indeed you will definitely be among the losers." (Al Qur'an 39:65)
"Verily, We will indeed make victorious Our Messengers and those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) in this world's life and on the Day when the witnesses will stand forth, (i.e. Day of Resurrection)," (Al-Qur'an 40:51)
Yet I offer peace to you.
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Didn't you say that number of converts isn't important.
Did it become important now in less than one hour.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
You are geting far too hostile and personal.Because evangelical Christians are the only people who come with the false lies and then quote from those sources to fabricate lies against Islam. It is not about convenience at all. I can come up with hundreds of Muslim websites claiming this and that but that would not be Unbiased and Impartial to most sensible people. Similarly Evangelical Christian sources are not Unbiased and Impartial to me. But unfortunately, that's all you got under your hat
Once again check who Andrew Walden is - the first person who claimed Obama is a Muslim - that's the level of ignorance of the sources you quote from. I don't know of any practicing Muslim let alone knowledgeable Muslim converting to Christianity. The only ones I know are the poor in the third world countries who are wooed by the christian missionaries in return for help and may be some who never knew what Islam is in the first place. Even then numbers do not even compare to the educated western Christians and others who are converting to Islam.
Read what I have quoted again. Those factors that you state have nothing to do with it at all - it is talking about NUMBER (not percentage) of CONVERSIONs (NOT TOTAL INCREASE IN MUSLIM DEMOGRAPHICS).
According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the worlds fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year:
Islam is the worlds fastest-growing religion. In 1990, 935 million people were Muslims and this figure had escalated to around 1.2 billion by 2000, meaning that around one in five people follow Islam. Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity (Guinness World Records 2003, pg 102)
What BS, you come up with.
It is sad that after failing to disprove that Islam is the Fastest growing religion with the most number of new converts, now you are making yet another failed/unsupported attempt to show that those new Muslims are leaving Islam. It is really a sad state of affairs for you. Unfortunately, you are too ignorant and easily brainwashed by the hate filled Islamophobic machine. You are the one in need of real education - which is only possible when you can stop reading from those anti-Islam evangelical christian sources and at least read what most of the world considers SENSIBLE.
Islam is the Fastest Growing Religion as it stands today and at the end it shall prevail regardless of how evil and hateful the plan of those anti-Muslim bigots are.
"And indeed it has already been revealed to you (The Prophet) and to the ones before you: "Indeed in case you associate (other gods with Allah), indeed your deeds will definitely be frustrated and indeed you will definitely be among the losers." (Al Qur'an 39:65)
"Verily, We will indeed make victorious Our Messengers and those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) in this world's life and on the Day when the witnesses will stand forth, (i.e. Day of Resurrection)," (Al-Qur'an 40:51)
Yet I offer peace to you.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Let's see....
You stated first:
I responded :
And mine is too hostile and personal than yours ?
You stated first:
I responded :
And mine is too hostile and personal than yours ?
Or is it the direct quotes from the Holy Qur'an predicting the future state of affairs for Islam and the Muslims that is too hostile and personal ?
I know what it is ... the following MUST BE the 'too hostile and personal' that you are talking about ....
What a cop out :run:
The appeal to numbers,the "mine has more recruits than yours" and is therefore true is farcical IMO and gives little (i'm being kind here) to your respective religions.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Except that the questioner 1robin was looking for the 'current approval rating' of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) - and that is all about numbers.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Christianity has always prevailed when it is small and helpful to the systemically undervalued and dehumanized. I suspect the same for Islam. the "My daddy's bigger than yours" argument is an epic failure.
Who cares how big Islam is? The bigger it gets the more likely it is to fail, IMO.
Who cares how big Islam is? The bigger it gets the more likely it is to fail, IMO.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
I also believe that Quality is more important than Quantity but he was looking for approval rating ... so I gave it to him.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Approval ratings are usually as useless as teats on a bull.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Yes it is. I have no problem with your numbers besides the fact that I believe in Islam a new birth is counted as a convert. Besides that there are many things after I started to think about this a bit that make numbers illusory. Having higher numbers may not mean you are getting a higher percentage when adjusted for population growth. The fact that you have x number of new recruits does not mean you do not have a higher yield of people that oppose a religion. In short statistics concerning this issue after more thought are extremely pliable. The reason I stopped discussing the issue is I felt like you were getting hostile and defensive. I am not sure if that estimation is correct. Fri for some reason I had very little patience and may have over estimated the emotion in your replies.
My original question was something along the lines that since the fairly recent uptick in Islamic terrorism I did not see how it would be possible for Muhammad to be thought greater today than in years past. I still don't, as even Europe has begun pushing back against them. This isn't Europes first experience with Islam encroachment.
I guess you supplied as well as could be what I asked for and so I will not add anything further.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Well I am not sure but believe it is the case. Technically, it is even true in a way. They have a new member of the religion that they did not previously have. I would say that that violates the spirit of the study but this is nothing new. If we are dealing with a system that counts new babies before they can choose anything to be Muslim and that to at any point leave is a risk to life in many places then we are not dealing with a reasonable value system. I did say that is what I believe might very well be the truth and I did not say I know that for a fact. Do you know by what method these statistics were gathered? It would be very hard to accurately gauge how many individuals personally adopt a religious system. Most likey they are gleaned from some other statistics, for example last years total numbers verses this years totals. I do not think actually knowing how many converted by free will and with the age that allowed for choice to be known but am open to any ideas. I completely dissagree with your last statement but I will not comment further now. You are a Satanist, correct? Are you posting in any threads where I can ask questions about your faith?
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
I have read more on those numbers and while not saying it it is a fact I am even more convinced they are using new borns as converts. It is a complicated issue where statistics are concerned. Someone said that while a fact is fairly concrete statistics are remarkably pliable. Mark Twain said that a lie can get half way around the earth before the truth can even get it's pants on.
At least you are honest. I think if it feels good then do it would sum this up. I feel the stakes are far far too high to have such an arbitrary and unfounded religous view but to each his own. Selah,
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