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The First Christians were not Bible Christians

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Don't get me wrong. Of all things to read that will bring the heart and soul closer to God, Scripture has preeminence ,and the church recognizes that, but is it necessary?

Necessary? Would God have provided it and had his servants record it and preserve it over all these centuries, if it wasn't necessary?

2 Tim 3:16, 17:
"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Seems pretty "necessary" to me.

In the time of Christ he was very upset with a lot of the people that were versed in Scripture. They used scripture to attack Jesus and His followers, because they all believe him to be very unscriptural.

What made him "unscriptural" to them? Wasn't it their ridiculous interpretation of the scriptures? The scriptures were not wrong, but their version of it was skewed by their own ideas.

He hung out with Sinners who did not know their Bible well at all , and those were the ones who accepted him.
Again, why did he do this? Because he was sent to none other than "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Why were these ones "lost" in the first place? Because they couldn't stomach what had become of Judaism. The rigid mindset of the hypocritical Pharisees made the doing of God's will impossible, so many had stopped trying. The Pharisees had abandoned them as lost; not worthy of their attention. This is why Jesus "hung out" with the ones who couldn't go along with what was clearly in error.
The religious leaders were not practicing what they preached but the majority of Jews just went along with them. Interestingly it was not those happy with the teachings of the Pharisees that Jesus was sent to. These were the ones who were instrumental in putting him to death, just as their forefathers had done in the past. (Matt 23:37-39) Jesus chose the "worthy ones" from among these "lost sheep". He could read hearts, so as the "Fine Shepherd", he knew a "lamb" who needed rescuing when he saw one. His apostles were told to go out and search for such ones. (Matt 10:11-15)

The Apostles were very uneducated simpletons. There are plenty of examples in the Gospels of how knowledge of scripture can also distance a person from God.

The 12 may have been "uneducated" by the standards of the day, i.e. they came from humble professions rather than attending Rabbinical Schools of higher education, which is why people were surprised by the standard and authority of their teachings. Jesus had no formal education either, which prompted people to say...“How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” (John 7:14, 15)

Acts 4:13, 14:
"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they wondered; and they recognized that they had been with Jesus."
They had the best teacher there ever was.Their education was actually superior to that of the recognized teachers and schools.

Knowledge of the scriptures does not distance anyone from God....it is inaccurate interpretation that causes the problem. The apostles were well versed in the scriptures, especially Paul who was formerly a Pharisee, well educated at the feet of Gamaliel. He used the scriptures extensively in his teachings.

I am confused by many of your statements PAD as they are often so far removed from the Bible's teachings.
 

israeliteindeed

New Member
Of course the 1st Christians had a Bible.
The OT is Christian scripture.
This is why the "Church" is so far from the truth of the scriptures.
To understand the NT we must know the OT.
The promises to the fathers which still have to be fulfilled.
The trinity is not in the OT and therefore not in the NT.
The hope of the Bible is the Hope of Israel which Paul spoke about.
We are Abraham's seed thru Christ and heirs to the promise of Abraham which only a few know of.
Take Care
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
The Catholics took all recorded New Testament books and carved them in half, pronouncing the rest as heresy. The Protestants came along much later and carved the Catholic church in half, trying to more closely match the remaining scriptures. First century Christianity hardly resembles any Catholic or Protestant church in existence today. When we read the words of the earliest Christian writers, we are left wondering what church they belonged to, because they talk of things that no longer exist. The same could be said of the Bible itself; half of the Old Testament is completely dismissed by modern Christians as if it has no bearing at all. The earliest Christians were Jews, and they still followed Jewish customs and laws. Paul himself continued to fulfill his duties in the temple at Jerusalem, while most Christians today have no idea what that duty could be, and modern Christians come up with all these excuses why a temple isn't necessary, a view that Paul didn't share. Then there are the esoteric beliefs, endemic to 1st century Christianity and found nowhere in Catholicism or Protestantism. Any good Christian historian can explain that the esoteric beliefs were a fundamental attribute of the early church, an attribute that has been entirely lost during many centuries of changing opinions and doctrines. They were difficult to understand, and didn't mesh with the popular philosophies of the day, so they were dropped, and then outlawed. The gifts of the spirit, one of the signs of a Christian, were all but completely lost by the end of the 1st century. The apostle John lamented, with good reason, that it was the last hour. The antichrist had all but won. The Christianity that became popular, bore only superficial resemblance to the Christianity of the apostles. Protestants had no chance at all of restoring Christianity. The best they could hope for was to follow what was left of the Bible. The idea of a perfect bible, containing all the knowledge of God, became the core of their new religion. Without that, they had nothing.

Only God could restore his true church to the earth.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Just wanted to address these few points....

The earliest Christians were Jews, and they still followed Jewish customs and laws.

The only difference was that the obligation to perform the ceremonial parts of the law were no longer valid. (Rom 10:4; Col 2:13, 14) Christ had fulfilled them meaning that animal sacrifices were no longer necessary. The temple that was destroyed in 70C.E. was never rebuilt...do you know why?

Heb 10:1-10:
"For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would not the sacrifices have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service once cleansed would have no consciousness of sins anymore? 3 On the contrary, these sacrifices are a reminder of sins year after year, 4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away.
5 So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ 7 Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” 8 After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin offerings”—sacrifices that are offered according to the Law— 9 then he says: “Look! I have come to do your will.” He does away with what is first in order to establish what is second. 10 By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time."


Since the temple was required for the sacrifices upon the alter, and the priesthood to officiate there, once the Christ offered himself "once for all time" there was no longer a need for an earthly temple. As Paul said, "the law was a shadow" of something greater.....a great spiritual temple in heaven where our "High Priest" has already gone to present the value of his sacrifice to God.
When Christ died, the curtain that separated the Most Holy compartment from the other compartment was "rent in two from top to bottom" indicating that the way was now open for others to follow and eventually take up positions in the heavenly kingdom. There was no earthly priesthood in Christianity. It was a position that Christ's death opened up for his disciples in the future....rulership and priesthood in heaven, not on earth. (Rev 20:6)

Paul himself continued to fulfill his duties in the temple at Jerusalem, while most Christians today have no idea what that duty could be, and modern Christians come up with all these excuses why a temple isn't necessary, a view that Paul didn't share.

Christianity was never intended to be a new religion but an extension and natural progression of the old one with the fulfillment of the prophesied role of the Messiah now a reality. But because the old way of worship was retained and the Messiah rejected, Judaism became redundant. (Matt 23:37-39) The Christians withdrew from Judaism and the synagogues after much persecution. Only Jews who accepted Christ were part of a new nation that would include people of the nations. (Acts 15:14)

The gifts of the spirit, one of the signs of a Christian, were all but completely lost by the end of the 1st century. The apostle John lamented, with good reason, that it was the last hour. The antichrist had all but won. The Christianity that became popular, bore only superficial resemblance to the Christianity of the apostles. Protestants had no chance at all of restoring Christianity. The best they could hope for was to follow what was left of the Bible. The idea of a perfect bible, containing all the knowledge of God, became the core of their new religion. Without that, they had nothing.

Only God could restore his true church to the earth.

It was foretold in his parable of the wheat and the weeds that this would be the case. Only at the time of the harvest would a clear distinction be made between the two.
Christendom bears no resemblance to the Christianity of the first century but its the only Christianity that people know. When you try to tell them that this is so, they don't believe you, for the same reason that the Jews rejected Christ.....he was too different and their religious leaders preached against him.They preferred what was comfortable. Most people don't like change and they don't like being part of a minority, which is what Christianity was. (Matt 7:13, 14)

God's word however endured all attempts to destroy or alter it over the centuries. It is God's word and men were never going to be permitted to change its message.

All we need is in the Bible. We have fair warning from Paul, who experienced the stirrings of apostasy even in his day.....

Gal 1:6-9
"I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed."

It is clear that no additions to God's word could be accepted....even if it was delivered by an angel.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Wow. How profound to speculate the first Christians weren't "Bible" Christians.
Really?
Nobody could even agree on what constituted the New Testament for five hundred years. The Ethiopian Orthodox to this day have a 35-book New Testament, yet they are in full communion with the Coptic Orthodox, who have the standard 27-book New Testament.

The Bible isn't the basis of Christian faith, and it never was. The early Christians can and did have different lists of what they considered Scripture, yet all had the same faith.
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
Since the temple was required for the sacrifices upon the alter, and the priesthood to officiate there, once the Christ offered himself "once for all time" there was no longer a need for an earthly temple.
So... you're saying that Paul was a complete dunce for going to the temple... and the Christians that were with him... So then why are you quoting him?
The temple was the center of both Jewish and Christian life. It wasn't only used for sacrifices. It held over 40 baptismal fonts. It is the place where an angel appeared to John the Baptist's father. It is the place where the mysteries were taught. It was never rebuilt, because true Christianity was all but dead. Christians met in secret, or risked being fed to the lions. The Jews couldn't rebuild it either. They certainly didn't think that the sacrifice of animals was over. They had a great gift from God and it was taken away because of their great wickedness.

The Temple was a great loss.

God's word however endured all attempts to destroy or alter it over the centuries. It is God's word and men were never going to be permitted to change its message.
No, it clearly has not endured. There is not one single book of the New Testament that is believed to be as the author originally wrote it; virtually all modern translations are made by looking at multiple sources. Neither you nor anyone else can point to one word of the Bible with any confidence that it has not been changed. Scribes make mistakes. Translators make mistakes. Some loss of quality is inevitable in any translation, because often there is no one-to-one correspondence of words and meanings. Sometimes scholars believe some passage of scripture to be a late addition, and try to delete it. Even if we had all the original books in perfect condition, it wouldn't be sufficient. According to John the Apostle, only a small amount was written down.

"Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written." - John 21:25

I absolutely believe that the writers of the New Testament were inspired men of God, but I have no such illusions of the scribes or translators.

All we need is in the Bible.
Apparently we don't need to know that, because that claim isn't in the Bible. Jesus certainly didn't believe it was complete, nor did his apostles.

"I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news.
Yet, you don't believe that Paul is talking about you. The whole Christian world has lost so much that they no longer even know what they have lost. They lost the Temple and the knowledge of all the ordinances, so they assume it was only used for sacrifices. They don't know why baptism is important, or why communion is important; they do it out of tradition with no real understanding. Christianity is a shadow of its former self. Phillip listed the major ordinances of Christianity in the Gospel of Phillip. The source for the Gospel of Phillip is as old, or older than the source for the Gospel of Luke. We are talking early 2nd century here. There is only one church today that practices all of these ordinances of salvation. It isn't the Catholic church, and it isn't a Protestant church. Of the six ordinances listed, I would bet that you will only recognize two - baptism and the eucharist.
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
Nobody could even agree on what constituted the New Testament for five hundred years.
One of the most popular books among both Jews and Christians of the 1st century was the Book of Enoch, a book which isn't part of hardly any modern Bible. In fact, we have at least two different books by that title, that have survived to modern times, and they have little in common. The Catholic church didn't include the Book of Enoch, because it talks about angels mating with mortal women. All of us can understand why that might be hard to swallow. The real question is Why did the early Christians believe it? There is a huge gap between ancient Christianity and modern Christianity, and this illustrates it.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
One of the most popular books among both Jews and Christians of the 1st century was the Book of Enoch, a book which isn't part of hardly any modern Bible. In fact, we have at least two different books by that title, that have survived to modern times, and they have little in common. The Catholic church didn't include the Book of Enoch, because it talks about angels mating with mortal women. All of us can understand why that might be hard to swallow. The real question is Why did the early Christians believe it? There is a huge gap between ancient Christianity and modern Christianity, and this illustrates it.
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church still includes the Book of Enoch in their OT Canon, incidentally. I believe that also extends to the Ge'ez Catholics, a group of Oriental Catholics who were once Ethiopian Orthodox Christians who converted to Catholicism.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So... you're saying that Paul was a complete dunce for going to the temple... and the Christians that were with him... So then why are you quoting him?
Did I say that Paul or any of the apostles were dunces? Please do not put words in my mouth.

Jesus and his apostles were all Jewish so they were bound by law to render acceptable worship according to God's law at the temple or at a synagogue.

After his death, the disciples of Jesus went to the temple for one reason....to teach about Christ and his kingdom.

Acts 5:42:
"And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus."
It wasn't to offer sacrifices or to follow the ceremonial laws.

The temple was the center of both Jewish and Christian life. It wasn't only used for sacrifices. It held over 40 baptismal fonts. It is the place where an angel appeared to John the Baptist's father. It is the place where the mysteries were taught. It was never rebuilt, because true Christianity was all but dead. Christians met in secret, or risked being fed to the lions. The Jews couldn't rebuild it either. They certainly didn't think that the sacrifice of animals was over. They had a great gift from God and it was taken away because of their great wickedness.

The Temple was a great loss.

The real temple was still standing...it was indestructible. The earthly temple was never rebuilt because the Jews rejected their Messiah and were cast off as God's people. (Matt 23:37-39)
The Christians met for instruction and worship in people's homes when it became too dangerous to go to the temple. Paul ended up teaching in the school auditorium. (Acts 19:8-10)

No, it clearly has not endured. There is not one single book of the New Testament that is believed to be as the author originally wrote it; virtually all modern translations are made by looking at multiple sources. Neither you nor anyone else can point to one word of the Bible with any confidence that it has not been changed. Scribes make mistakes. Translators make mistakes. Some loss of quality is inevitable in any translation, because often there is no one-to-one correspondence of words and meanings. Sometimes scholars believe some passage of scripture to be a late addition, and try to delete it. Even if we had all the original books in perfect condition, it wouldn't be sufficient. According to John the Apostle, only a small amount was written down.

"Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written." - John 21:25

I absolutely believe that the writers of the New Testament were inspired men of God, but I have no such illusions of the scribes or translators.

If it is God's word, then it was by his inspiration that it was written and by his spirit that it was preserved. Humans had little to do with any of it.
Your thinking would leave you wide open to the idea that more scripture would be added later....that wasn't what Paul indicated at Gal 1:6-9.
Revelation also concludes with the words...

Rev 22:18, 19:
“I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll."

Apparently we don't need to know that, because that claim isn't in the Bible. Jesus certainly didn't believe it was complete, nor did his apostles.

Would you mind backing up that statement from the Bible? You can't possibly mean a new set of scriptures that is accepted by only one religious denomination in a world of Christians...can you?

Yet, you don't believe that Paul is talking about you.

Or perhaps you don't believe he is talking about the LDS church.

The whole Christian world has lost so much that they no longer even know what they have lost.
I agree.

They lost the Temple

No they didn't. They discerned that the great spiritual temple was in heaven where their High Priest had gone to prepare for their arrival.

The Jews lost their temple. Christians never had an earthly one because their priesthood was not earthly.

and the knowledge of all the ordinances, so they assume it was only used for sacrifices. They don't know why baptism is important, or why communion is important; they do it out of tradition with no real understanding.
For a fact, Christianity had no formal rituals or "ordinances". Christians met for worship and instruction. All of the ceremonial aspects were now in the past, fulfilled in Christ.
There was only one event on the Christian calendar that we are commanded to keep...the annual Memorial of Christ's death. This is not Easter, but the solemn commemoration of Jesus' sacrifice minus the pagan trappings.

Christianity is a shadow of its former self.

I agree....barely a shadow.

Phillip listed the major ordinances of Christianity in the Gospel of Phillip. The source for the Gospel of Phillip is as old, or older than the source for the Gospel of Luke. We are talking early 2nd century here.

There is a reason why the Bible canon finishes at Revelation. Nothing written after the first century, after the death of the apostles, can be regarded as an adjunct to scripture.

The great apostasy that was foretold was snapping at the heels of the apostles whilst they were still alive, but once their influence was gone, Christianity went to the dogs. (2 Thess 2:3-7) This paved the way for an apostate church acting in an unchristian manner and bringing reproach on the God they claimed to worship.

There is only one church today that practices all of these ordinances of salvation.

Don't tell me....let me guess..... :)

It isn't the Catholic church, and it isn't a Protestant church.

You got that right.

Of the six ordinances listed,
Listed where? In a non-canonical book?

I would bet that you will only recognize two - baptism and the eucharist.

There is no doubt that Christian baptism is a necessary requirement for those wishing to follow Christ (Matt 29:19, 20) and the emblems of the last supper were to be passed among Christ's anointed as they reaffirmed their place in the kingdom covenant. (Luke 22:19, 20) Preaching and teaching about God's kingdom were also commanded by Jesus as a necessary activity. (Matt 24:14)

What other ordinances do you believe there are? From the Bible please.
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church still includes the Book of Enoch in their OT Canon, incidentally. I believe that also extends to the Ge'ez Catholics, a group of Oriental Catholics who were once Ethiopian Orthodox Christians who converted to Catholicism.
Yeah, that's why I said hardly. Few Christians on this side of the world have heard of it, let alone read it. God never gave us a list of which books were inspired.
 

rrosskopf

LDS High Priest
Jesus and his apostles were all Jewish so they were bound by law to render acceptable worship according to God's law at the temple or at a synagogue.
When a person is properly baptized, they become "Jewish" in the eyes of God. They are bound to him just as much as any Jew. Did you not know that baptism was a Jewish ordinance? God can indeed raise up out of these rocks children to Abraham.

It wasn't to offer sacrifices or to follow the ceremonial laws.
“Here’s what we want you to do. We have four men here who have completed their vow. Go with them to the Temple and join them in the purification ceremony, paying for them to have their heads ritually shaved.
Then everyone will know that the rumors are all false and that you yourself observe the Jewish laws.

“As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

So Paul went to the Temple the next day with the other men. They had already started the purification ritual, so he publicly announced the date when their vows would end and sacrifices would be offered for each of them.

The seven days were almost ended when some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul in the Temple and roused a mob against him. They grabbed him, yelling, “Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who preaches
against our people everywhere and tells everybody to disobey the Jewish laws. He speaks against the Temple—and even defiles this holy place by bringing in Gentiles.
(Acts 21:23-28)​
The real temple was still standing...it was indestructible.
The Temple at Jerusalem was the real temple. Jesus even recognized it as still the House of the Lord, when he chased out the money changers. No where in the bible is it stated that the Temple was unnecessary. In fact, the scripture you quoted would be superfluous if the Temple was unnecessary. You are making your own religion out of broadcloth.
The Christians met for instruction and worship in people's homes when it became too dangerous to go to the temple.
The Temple was not a church. The Jews had churches. They called them synagogues. They met and worshiped in synagogues. The Temple was special. The Temple was sacred ground. None of the synagogues bore the name "The House of the Lord".
If it is God's word, then it was by his inspiration that it was written and by his spirit that it was preserved.
Which of all the hundreds of different bibles is the one that has been preserved? Not one autograph exists. The word has not been preserved. Mankind has done the best they can to preserve sacred verse, but has never come to any agreement on which books are sacred verse, or which version of which books is the most accurate. One could as easily - and perhaps more correctly - say that the Gospel of Phillip was preserved. Rather than be burned, it was buried to preserve it against those who would destroy sacred writ.
Your thinking would leave you wide open to the idea that more scripture would be added later....that wasn't what Paul indicated at Gal 1:6-9.
So then you reject all the New Testament that was written after Galatians? Actually the verse doesn't say anything about God stopping his inspiration, or the end of sacred writ.
"Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you."​
The real question is who is teaching the "different kind of good news". The same "kind" of good news could be taught without a limit to the number of books. In fact, Mark, Luke and John all teach the same "kind" of good news mentioned by Matthew.
Again, you are making up your own religion out of broadcloth. The scriptures don't say what you think they say. They don't support a closed canon.
“I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll
It is referring to the Book of Revelations - the prophecy on one particular scroll. The author is worried that people will change it. He doesn't believe that God will preserve it. The injunction doesn't apply to any other scroll, or to any group of such scrolls.
Would you mind backing up that statement from the Bible? You can't possibly mean a new set of scriptures that is accepted by only one religious denomination in a world of Christians...can you?
Absolutely! We call it the New Testament, all of which was written after Jesus ascended. Jesus believed in modern prophets (John the Baptist, etc.), and although he never said that his words should be added to the Old Testament, his followers certainly believed that they belonged, and were inspired by the Holy Ghost. Are you really going to argue that Jesus didn't believe in an open and expanding canon of scripture? Should we take the New Testament out of the Bible? Perish the thought.
Or perhaps you don't believe he is talking about the LDS church.
I absolutely know he wasn't talking about the LDS faith. I don't think the Corinthians were having a problem with Mormons. Greek philosophers and Sadducees were among the greatest opponents of Paul's Christianity. The Sadducees didn't believe in a physical resurrection, because Moses never mentioned it. The Greeks and Romans believed that matter was evil, and therefore they too didn't believe in a physical resurrection. Paul was constantly preaching how Jesus was physically resurrected, not unlike a modern prophet that I know of.
The Jews lost their temple. Christians never had an earthly one because their priesthood was not earthly.
There you go - making up your own religion again. The priesthood is the authority to represent God. All true prophets and apostles had that authority. Do you think that the apostles taught without authority? Do you think that they baptized without authority? Some have argued that Jesus was the final High Priest, but the Didache, arguably the oldest manual of Christian practice, states that the prophets were High Priests. 1 Clement specifically mentions High Priests, Priests, and Levites in the 1st century Christian church. Jesus himself promised to send us prophets and apostles. Prophets and apostles are the foundation of Christ's church.
"And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;…" (Ephesians 4:11,12)

"Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church: first are apostles, second are prophets, third are teachers,
then those who do miracles, those who have the gift of healing, those who can help others, those who have the gift of leadership,
those who speak in unknown languages." (1 Corinthians 12:28)
God appointed apostles, prophets and teachers in his church. They spoke with his authority. They bore his priesthood.

There is a reason why the Bible canon finishes at Revelation.
Yes, but it isn't what you think it is. Bishop Athanasius, about 350 AD., insisted that the Book of Revelations be included with the Bible. His predecessor was against it. Bishop Athanasius was largely responsible for deciding which books should be included in a New Testament. He rejected many as heresy. Revelations wasn't a testament, like Matthew, Mark Luke and John, nor was it a letter like Paul's letter to the Romans; it was placed last in a category by itself.

For a fact, Christianity had no formal rituals or "ordinances".
That is a very strange assertion. Baptism isn't a ritual? It isn't an ordinance? What possible definition could support such a statement? A ritual is a religious rite, and a rite is a ceremonial act, according to Dictionary.com. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with your own definition that excludes baptism.
The Gospel of Phillip, discovered at Nag Hammadi, dates to the early 2nd century, older than some of our New Testament books. It mentions several sacraments practiced by Christians of the day. By what authority do you declare them false?
What other ordinances do you believe there are? From the Bible please.
Which bible? Any Bible? The Gospel of Phillip was in someone's bible. He mentions "The Lord did everything in a mystery, a baptism and a chrism and a eucharist and a redemption and a bridal chamber." These aren't pagan ceremonies. They are distinctly and uniquely Judeo/Christian. Phillip lists 5 ordinances or mysteries. A mystery, or mustérion in the Greek, is a secret doctrine, or a doctrine only known by revelation. http://biblehub.com/greek/3466.htm It has another meaning; a mustérion is a drama or enactment. In baptism, we enact being buried, and then resurrected. In the Eucharist, we enact eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ. Paul tells us that he was a keeper of the mysteries, and refused to teach them to the Corinthians, even though they had been members for years. I don't think he was talking about baptism. The Corinthians had already been baptized.

The Catholic and Protestant bibles don't tell us what these mysteries of Paul were, and he never writes about them except obliquely. Bishop Cyril of Jerusalem wrote much more about the mysteries, but that was 300 years later. If you read the article in Wikipedia on "Chrism", you can find Cyril's comments on this early Christian sacrament.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
The first Christians were not Christians, they were Jews.

And Catholics and Protestants have different bibles. Catholics have more books in theirs. And it took centuries to finally decide what was biblical canon and what was not, so what reasoning could you possibly have to believe that it's never been re-evaluated and then re-evaluated again since it's conception?

Very interesting discussion but this stuck out for me. What do you mean?
 

Thana

Lady
Very interesting discussion but this stuck out for me. What do you mean?

The first Christians according to the Church were Jesus and His disciples, But they weren't Christians they were Jews. And the people after them were Jews. And they never called themselves Christians, They called themselves followers of the way.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The first Christians according to the Church were Jesus and His disciples, But they weren't Christians they were Jews. And the people after them were Jews. And they never called themselves Christians, They called themselves followers of the way.
Mostly correct, but they had a welcome audience with what were called "God-Fearers", which were gentiles that believed in the "God of Abraham" but didn't convert to Judaism. This is the group and their followers that gradually appear to have taken over the movement after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 c.e.

The title "Christianos" (universal) was used as a descriptor in the 2nd century, eventually becoming it's main label by the end of that century.
 

Domenic

Active Member

I only have access to a phone and so consequently it is a lot easier and quicker To say what I want to say and for you to better know where I'm coming from to just make a YouTube.

There are some questions I would like for Bible Christians to answer, but anyone is free to comment of course.

The First Christians were not Bible Christians, and that actually is not even up for debate. It is obvious both from a Biblical and Historical view that they were not, but is also very clear to anyone who has a basic ability to think rationally or reason.

That is a good question. I like it when people ask about things they have reasoned on. No they did not have a bible. They had over fifty different scrolls. These were the word of God. That is not to say everybody had some of these scrolls. They did gather in groups and read the scrolls. After Jesus was here, men began forming religions for money.
It was these same people who built the bible. God did not tell them to make a bible. The religions have claimed the bible is the word of God and that they copied it from the scrolls. The Bible is two different books, The Hebrew scriptures, which they had when Jesus was here, and the Greek Scriptures that was written after Jesus, which were also scrolls. Constantine, Christian Emperor of Rome, A.D. 280(?) 387 gathered all these new Christians(sic) leaders(money changers) and had them write a book, the bible for a State religion. These so-called religious leaders took only four books of the scrolls to build the Greek scriptures. They were sure to leave out all the others which showed these man made religions were false. I am a Christian. I have matched the bibe to the scrolls. The two do not match. religions claim they do. Put them side by side, and they do not. The bible is not from God. true many of the scriptures do match the scrolls, but most scriptures have been left out, others changed.
If you have a bible I suggest you try this:
Read about Enoch in, Genes 3:22, Genesis 5:24, and Hebrews 11:5 These three scriptures will tell you God loved Enoch so much, that before Enoch died of old age, God took him to heaven. Enoch wrote five books. These told what took place before the flood. He told who(my name) did what, said God would destroy the earth with water. He also told our generation what would happen. Enoch was the seventh from Adam, and the Great Grand Father of Noah. The bible shows Enoch was a good man, and God loved him. Why are are his five books not in the bible? Because all these false religions don't want people to know the truth. All these religions are tools of Satan.
You can find the books of Enoch on you tube.
I hope this helps answer some questions you have. You can go to God and ask he help you learn the truth. When you talk to God you must do it in Jesus name. it works. God will unscrew your head.
Domenic
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
The son called new testament was put together until about 321 ad, by the order of Constantine, and of course there was those who had some form of beliefs compared to what we call Christians teachings, but what those teachings were, we probably will never know, for most teachings have been manipulated, and so the real so called teachings were all lost.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
The first Christians according to the Church were Jesus and His disciples, But they weren't Christians they were Jews. And the people after them were Jews. And they never called themselves Christians, They called themselves followers of the way.

How are you defining Jew here? By ethnicity or by religious practice? Because if it's the latter, they most certainly were not Jews and the Jewish community at the time and to this day, deny Jesus as even a Prophet from God, let alone the son of God.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How are you defining Jew here? By ethnicity or by religious practice? Because if it's the latter, they most certainly were not Jews and the Jewish community at the time and to this day, deny Jesus as even a Prophet from God, let alone the son of God.
That's ridiculous. Of course they were Jews. That's like saying some sect of Christianity that believes in some particular belief that other Christians do not are "not Christians". That point of difference gradually over many decades finally grew to the point that they split off from the parent religion into their own entity, like Buddhism split away from Hinduism. Here's another example for you. Are Sufis not Muslims?
 

Thana

Lady
How are you defining Jew here? By ethnicity or by religious practice? Because if it's the latter, they most certainly were not Jews and the Jewish community at the time and to this day, deny Jesus as even a Prophet from God, let alone the son of God.

It's not how I define it.
A Messianic Jew is still a Jew.
 
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