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The First Christians were not Bible Christians

Spiderman

Veteran Member

I only have access to a phone and so consequently it is a lot easier and quicker To say what I want to say and for you to better know where I'm coming from to just make a YouTube.

There are some questions I would like for Bible Christians to answer, but anyone is free to comment of course.

The First Christians were not Bible Christians, and that actually is not even up for debate. It is obvious both from a Biblical and Historical view that they were not, but is also very clear to anyone who has a basic ability to think rationally or reason.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Please define "Bible Christian"
From the video it seems that sometimes you mean sola scriptura other times not so much.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Please define "Bible Christian"
From the video it seems that sometimes you mean sola scriptura other times not so much.
Yes Sola Scripture , but also the fact that it was very rare for someone to be versed in Scripture at that that time (like extremely rare.)

Also, the first Christians were not sure and quarrelled over which New Testament writtings were "God's Word".

The first Christians had no Bible. It wasn't till 1450 that the first Bible was printed (in Germany.)
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Wow. How profound to speculate the first Christians weren't "Bible" Christians.
Really?
No, nobody knew precisely what the New Testament was and almost nobody was versed in Scripture or owned them.

If the Bible was to be the sole rule of Christian theology , how odd that Christ never left the early church with such a book.
 
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Spiderman

Veteran Member
Many Protestants call themselves "Bible Christians" so it's them I'm referring to, but Catholicism is actually more Biblical.
 

Thana

Lady
The first Christians were not Christians, they were Jews.

And Catholics and Protestants have different bibles. Catholics have more books in theirs. And it took centuries to finally decide what was biblical canon and what was not, so what reasoning could you possibly have to believe that it's never been re-evaluated and then re-evaluated again since it's conception?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Wow. How profound to speculate the first Christians weren't "Bible" Christians.
Really?
Ya, really. The Christian scriptures were not even started until about 20 years after Jesus was crucified, and they were not canonized until the 4th century under Constantine. The choosing process involved roughly a thousand or so books, although some were so widely circulated and used, especially Paul's letters, that they pretty much were slam-dunk choices. Some others involved quite a bit of controversy, such as Revelation and Hebrews.
 
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Spiderman

Veteran Member
The first Christians were not Christians, they were Jews.

And Catholics and Protestants have different bibles. Catholics have more books in theirs. And it took centuries to finally decide what was biblical canon and what was not, so what reasoning could you possibly have to believe that it's never been re-evaluated and then re-evaluated again since it's conception?
That is the thing. Protestants claim to be solascriptura but they actually are not because they found a source outside of scripture to delete those books that were part of the Christian Bible for quite a few centuries.

By what authority did Martin Luther remove those books and by what Authority do you use to accept his decision?

(Question for Protestants)

I say this because there were quite a few quotes in another thread about the Catholic Church cannot find in the Bible "x, y, and z", and Protestants are lacking Biblical basis for many of their assertions.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
Well, frankly any person or group that feels they have "the" perfect translation or the
most accurate one is fool pf condensed cow cakes. ( like that?)
We who care about accurate ways to worship Jehovah, ( or God if you like ) can only do the
best we can to learn the truth from ancient scripture.
I know of only ONE religion that digs and digs into translations to try and preach the
truth.
The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watch Tower Bible and Track people.
Are they spot on?????
I don't have a clue.
Anyone having a better resource please post.
Inquiring minds don'cha'know.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
I nearly became a Catholic myself, and had many of the same questions you did. I hope I can provide a detailed explanation of the "Bible Christian" position to you on your questions. I try to be as historically accurate as possible and honest with you in my answers, and if you need clarification for any of my historical claims I will be happy to provide reputable sources.

First off if the Bible was to be the sole rule of Christian faith why did not Christ leave the early church with a Bible? Why did the Bible come centuries afterwards?
In with the good questions straight off the bat eh? :D

So, why didn't Jesus leave the early church with a Bible? Well, I believe He did. Sure, He didn't conjure one up immediately and give it to His Apostles, but was it not the Holy Spirit that inspired and worked through the Apostles in their writings? And it wasn't as if those early believers had nothing, they had the Old Testament Scriptures.

You say that the first Christians were not 'Bible' Christians, and say that is 'not up for debate' yet Paul exhorts Timothy to continue in what he has learned and firmly believed, being acquainted with the sacred writings. Now remember Paul isn't even talking about the New Testament yet, but the Old Testament Scriptures which the early believers already had.

From 2 Timothy 3:14-17:

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

Paul isn't just speaking of these Scriptures highly, he's going as far to say that the Scriptures are profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, and equipped for every good work!

So I think Jesus did leave the church with the Bible. They had the Old Testament, and the New Testament was being written in the Gospels and the epistles, and these circulated around the church.

To say it took 'centuries' to have the Bible I would contest. Let's take a look at 2 Peter 3:

15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

The New Testament presumably hasn't even finished being written yet, and already Paul's letters are treated as Scripture! They didn't have to debate about it for centuries, here Peter is quite naturally saying that Paul's letters are Scriptures.

Now, there were contested books that took some years to iron out whether they were canonical or not. But by the second century and certainly the beginning of the third century we had the vast, vast majority of the books of the Bible sorted out, with a few questions raised over books like Revelation and Hebrews.

We have the Muratorian fragment, traditionally dated to 170 AD, which lists the vast majority of the 27 New Testament books, and shows that there was already widespread consensus on the vast majority of the canon, and that these epistles and Gospels were being circulated by believers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muratorian_fragment

And if the Bible is your sole rule of faith how come it is not anywhere in Scripture written which of the books was to comprise the Bible?

Another great question. This bugged me for a while too. How can we know for sure?

Well, we can know with a great deal of certainty simply by looking at the early Christians. We have the Muratorian fragment and the discussions of the church fathers in the second and third centuries. We can judge the NT books as having widespread circulation, of apostolic authorship and of theological content. These three tests can be applied to virtually all of the NT books. We only start finding difficulty when we reach epistles where we are no longer so sure of authorship like the epistle to the Hebrews. Based on the consensus of the church though and the content of the letters themselves we can be very confident that the canon is accurate.

A popular Protestant way of putting it is that we have "a fallible collection of infallible books". We are certain we have the complete canon, but we would not claim infallibility in doing so.

And if you do not trust the Catholic Church why do you trust the Bible when the Catholic Church decided which of the many writings on the life of Christ and from the Apostles and the early Christians were to be in that volume that was decided at the councils of Rome, Carthage and Hippo centuries later?
I have problems with your question here, and would say it is to some degree inaccurate.

There was an early consensus from believers on a vast majority of NT books, the Catholic Church didn't get together in the early centuries and put it all together from nowhere.

In fact, all three of the examples you cite are not infallible councils under the Pope's authority.

In fact, the Catholic Church did not infallibly rule on which books of the Bible were canon until the 16th century in the Council of Trent (some would argue the 15th century in the Council of Florence).

So that means for the first 1600 years of church history, Christians had no idea what was in the Bible? Of course not, the canon was quite clear without the infallible proclamations of the Catholic Church.

Regarding your specific examples, the Synod of Hippo was a regional African council that was not ratified by the Pope. The Synod of Carthage as well was a regional council not ratified by the Pope. Neither of these were therefore infallible.

And at the Council of Rome, there was no canon declared. It is known now that the Decretum Gelasianum, where the canon was proclaimed is most likely a forgery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Rome

So there is no need to trust the Catholic Church on what's in the Bible, when they only infallibly proclaimed what was in the Bible in the 16th century, after the Protestant Reformation, so we clearly know Christians did not need a proclamation from the Catholic Church to know what was in the Bible.

If the Bible was to be the sole rule of faith why did the disciples, the Apostles, why was their vocation not to be going around handing Scriptures to people?
Jesus gave the mission to the Apostles, to preach the good news. And the Apostles were authors of the Bible, the Holy Spirit worked through them to produce the epistles and Gospels that make up the Bible we have today.

As I mentioned already, look to 2 Timothy 3 to see how important Paul viewed the Scriptures, which at that time were just the Old Testament Scriptures too, and that the Scriptures would equip them for every good work, that they could be complete. The Bible being the only sufficient rule of faith is not based on nothing, but on the Scriptures themselves which testify to its own sufficiency, equipping us for every good work, profitable, that we may be complete, lacking nothing!

A further example of the Apostles' view of Scripture would be from 1 Peter, which gives an extraordinary insight into the Apostle Peter's view of Scripture being more sure than what he has seen with his own eyes!

From 1 Peter 1:

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.17 For when he received honour and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”,18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Look at what Peter is saying here. He is talking about how he witnessed the transfiguration of the Lord Jesus Christ with his very eyes, they were eyewitnesses of His majesty, and heard the very voice of God!

And what does Peter say? We have something more sure, the prophetic word. Peter is saying the Scriptures are more sure than what he has seen with his own eyes in Jesus' transfiguration. And if there's any doubt about what the 'prophetic word' is, you can see from verse 20 it is quite clearly speaking of the Scripture.

Old Testament... graven images... bronze serpent...
I personally do not use this argument really and so am not going to defend it. As someone who formerly was very interested in Catholicism, I understand why these aren't convincing. Your answers sound very familiar to me, a fan of Catholic Answers perhaps?

Who is the final authority in which, when God tells people to do the opposite of what He tells them elsewhere in Scripture? Who is the final authority as to if people come up with two Scriptures that say the opposite, and two people are led to opposite beliefs, who is the final authority to decide who is right and who is wrong? Both of them will say Scripture is the final authority and both will have Scriptures to back up what they believe. And so Scripture is not the final authority.
I agree there are difficult issues, but I also believe on all doctrines of faith these things can be resolved by Scripture. Scripture interprets Scripture, and while people have opposing views I would posit that often one side will have their own personal reasons for why they believe this or that, and may find it difficult to submit to what the Bible is saying.

Now of course there are genuine disagreements on what the Scriptures are saying, but I believe these are often a few minor matters, and with a thorough approach to the Scriptures and reading them as a whole, making sure to interpret Scripture with Scripture, looking into proper context and what the text is saying rather than we want the text to say, in virtually all cases we will come to the correct conclusion. Paul tells us the Scriptures are profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness. We can trust in its inerrancy, infallibility and the guidance God provides us through it.

Now, let's look at the Catholic position. If the Church is the final authority, does this really make it better?

At the end of the day, in order to conclude that the Catholic Church is the infallible interpreter of Scripture, you've had to use your own reason and mind to come to that conclusion, yes?

So in the same way a Protestant has had to use his or her mind to come to an interpretation of Scripture, a Catholic has at some point had to use his or her mind to come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the infallible interpreter.

Now, are our minds infallible?

No, so the problem persists. Fundamentally, if a person uses his own mind to interpret Scripture (and remember that Jesus promises the Holy Spirit to illuminate our minds, I'm not being arrogant and saying we can interpret it by ourselves), how is this more fallible than a person who concludes using his mind that the Catholic Church is the infallible interpreter? Both rely on fallible minds and reasoning.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
((This continues my answers to your video questions from the last post))
Very clearly the first Christians were not Bible Christians and without church authority and authority outside of Scripture we wouldn't have a Bible and the first Bibles were very rarely, it's a lot easier for you to purchase a Lexus nowadays than it was for so many centuries to get a hold of a Bible as it would have been extremely pricey and rare for there to be a Bible available to people as every Bible had to be hand-written which took a long time and then the Church had to investigate it to see if there were any mistakes in copying it down did the person writing the Bible add anything to it and so it really was extremely impractical to have access to it and many people were illiterate so obviously since it was so rarely available to people it was not to be the sole rule of their faith there had to be an outside authority.
On the first point, on the first Christians not being Bible Christians, refer to my previous answers, I believe I have refuted that point with their access to Old Testament Scriptures and Paul's own exhortation on the Scriptures.

Without church 'authority' yes we do have a Bible. As previously explained the Catholic Church only infallibly proclaimed on the issue in the 16th century. The synods of Hippo and Carthage were not infallible. The Council of Rome did not pronounce on the matter.

Secondly, I wouldn't claim that every Christian had a little pocket Bible they carried around with them. Of course it would have been extremely expensive to have a Bible all to yourself. But each church seem to have been circulating around epistles, gospels and copies of them, and these would have been read out to the congregation, so being illiterate was not disastrous, the people knew about the different epistles, we can see a consensus emerging about the inspired texts from the second century itself.

Your reasoning that the Bible at that time was impractical, expensive, people were illiterate and it was rarely available does not necessarily mean the Bible is not the sole rule of faith. As already explained, they still could have been read out to from Scripture, taught from Scripture, congregations would have had the Old Testament Scriptures to teach from. Yes it was harder to achieve back then, it was not as accessible then as it is now, they did have to rely a lot on word of mouth and what people had remembered from what the Apostles directly told them, but this does not mean there was some infallible outside authority they went to, and does not mean the Bible isn't the sufficient rule of faith.

Why? Because sola scriptura isn't just some nice idea thought up by a rebellious monk, but as I've shown already it can be demonstrated from the Scriptures themselves. Regardless of the historical arguments, look to the Scriptures, look to 2 Timothy 3:14-17, which clearly tells us the Scriptures can equip us for every good work, so that the man of God may be complete. An outside church authority is not required, when the Scriptures themselves are able to equip us so that we may be complete.

----------------

I hope this has helped. I didn't want to leave anything out or make you feel like I'm misrepresenting you or skipping questions. I only left out the bits on the Old Testament arguments against Catholicism, which I understand aren't very convincing, I wasn't very convinced by them myself, and so won't defend them.

What convinced me to move away from Catholicism was the historical claims the Catholic Church itself provide, such as saying they decided what was in the Bible, when we know from history the first infallible proclamation was only in the 16th century, and their claims about Peter being the rock don't add up, from the scriptural text we don't see any indication that if Peter is indeed the rock, this would somehow mean his 'rock-ness' would be transferred to his successors.

Further, I was attracted to the certainty in having an infallible living authority like the Catholic Church to interpret Scripture for me. But this turns out to not be an answer at all, because I've had to rely on my own fallible mind to conclude the Catholic Church is the infallible interpreter in the first place, which doesn't solve anything!

And chiefly, far, far more important than any historical argument, is the witness of the Scriptures themselves, which speak clearly in 2 Timothy 3 on what is sufficient to make the man of God complete, to equip him for every good work, and that is the Scriptures themselves.

I hope that at the very least you can see these issues aren't as clear-cut as it may have initially appeared to you, that it is a lot more complex, and will require a lot of prayer and meditating upon the Scriptures to know God's true will, look to Him, seek Him, and He shall be found.
 

Thana

Lady
That is the thing. Protestants claim to be solascriptura but they actually are not because they found a source outside of scripture to delete those books that were part of the Christian Bible for quite a few centuries.

By what authority did Martin Luther remove those books and by what Authority do you use to accept his decision?

(Question for Protestants)

I say this because there were quite a few quotes in another thread about the Catholic Church cannot find in the Bible "x, y, and z", and Protestants are lacking Biblical basis for many of their assertions.

Not all Protestants are Lutherans. But after him, people, scholars, Jews and Christian alike, created bibles of their own. There are numerous bibles. The Authority of what bible is right goes to the individual, and no one else, no Church, tells us what God says or what is from Him. We get to decide.

All it takes is a bit of research and a willingness to learn things for yourself, instead of being told what is and what isn't.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member

I only have access to a phone and so consequently it is a lot easier and quicker To say what I want to say and for you to better know where I'm coming from to just make a YouTube.

There are some questions I would like for Bible Christians to answer, but anyone is free to comment of course.

The First Christians were not Bible Christians, and that actually is not even up for debate. It is obvious both from a Biblical and Historical view that they were not, but is also very clear to anyone who has a basic ability to think rationally or reason.
I think you make some excellent points. I am in complete agreement with you that there are real problems with taking the Bible as the ultimate authority, but that does not make the Catholic church any more of an authority. Them being wrong does not automatically make you right.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
((This continues my answers to your video questions from the last post))

On the first point, on the first Christians not being Bible Christians, refer to my previous answers, I believe I have refuted that point with their access to Old Testament Scriptures and Paul's own exhortation on the Scriptures.

Without church 'authority' yes we do have a Bible. As previously explained the Catholic Church only infallibly proclaimed on the issue in the 16th century. The synods of Hippo and Carthage were not infallible. The Council of Rome did not pronounce on the matter.

Secondly, I wouldn't claim that every Christian had a little pocket Bible they carried around with them. Of course it would have been extremely expensive to have a Bible all to yourself. But each church seem to have been circulating around epistles, gospels and copies of them, and these would have been read out to the congregation, so being illiterate was not disastrous, the people knew about the different epistles, we can see a consensus emerging about the inspired texts from the second century itself.

Your reasoning that the Bible at that time was impractical, expensive, people were illiterate and it was rarely available does not necessarily mean the Bible is not the sole rule of faith. As already explained, they still could have been read out to from Scripture, taught from Scripture, congregations would have had the Old Testament Scriptures to teach from. Yes it was harder to achieve back then, it was not as accessible then as it is now, they did have to rely a lot on word of mouth and what people had remembered from what the Apostles directly told them, but this does not mean there was some infallible outside authority they went to, and does not mean the Bible isn't the sufficient rule of faith.

Why? Because sola scriptura isn't just some nice idea thought up by a rebellious monk, but as I've shown already it can be demonstrated from the Scriptures themselves. Regardless of the historical arguments, look to the Scriptures, look to 2 Timothy 3:14-17, which clearly tells us the Scriptures can equip us for every good work, so that the man of God may be complete. An outside church authority is not required, when the Scriptures themselves are able to equip us so that we may be complete.

----------------

I hope this has helped. I didn't want to leave anything out or make you feel like I'm misrepresenting you or skipping questions. I only left out the bits on the Old Testament arguments against Catholicism, which I understand aren't very convincing, I wasn't very convinced by them myself, and so won't defend them.

What convinced me to move away from Catholicism was the historical claims the Catholic Church itself provide, such as saying they decided what was in the Bible, when we know from history the first infallible proclamation was only in the 16th century, and their claims about Peter being the rock don't add up, from the scriptural text we don't see any indication that if Peter is indeed the rock, this would somehow mean his 'rock-ness' would be transferred to his successors.

Further, I was attracted to the certainty in having an infallible living authority like the Catholic Church to interpret Scripture for me. But this turns out to not be an answer at all, because I've had to rely on my own fallible mind to conclude the Catholic Church is the infallible interpreter in the first place, which doesn't solve anything!

And chiefly, far, far more important than any historical argument, is the witness of the Scriptures themselves, which speak clearly in 2 Timothy 3 on what is sufficient to make the man of God complete, to equip him for every good work, and that is the Scriptures themselves.

I hope that at the very least you can see these issues aren't as clear-cut as it may have initially appeared to you, that it is a lot more complex, and will require a lot of prayer and meditating upon the Scriptures to know God's true will, look to Him, seek Him, and He shall be found.
Thanks Sultan. I have no quarrel with you because you aren't the one saying the Catholic church is so satanic because they can't find such and such practice in Scripture.

But there was a lot of that on other threads ,,and they were the main people I was trying to get to speak for themselves.

Regarding 2 Timothy, since there was no New Testament, it seems pretty clear to me , he was only referring to the Old, because that was what they had at that time. Scripture uses the word sufficient in a similar way it uses the word all. Scripture says "all shall be saved".

If Scripture was everything people need, or 100% sufficient, then we wouldn't have so much division rising from the Protestant Reformation. It literally shattered Christendom into to thousands of pieces.

But yes, neither the church or any Christian could be complete without Scripture. The Church holds Scripture to have preeminence of all sources of Divine revelation.

The Church is like a chair with three legs. Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium. Scripture is the most important leg, but not going to hold the chair up on it's own.

But Jesus said the law can be summed up in loving God with all your heart , and love your neighbor as yourself. If Sola Scripture lead you to follow that Commandment to a greater extent than being Catholic, I wouldn't want you to be Catholic, and neither would God want anything to get in the way of you most efficiently following the greatest commandment and a personal relationship with Jesus.

My quarrel is with those who complain about the church being satanic because the teaching or practice can't be found in the Bible. Although I strongly disagree with the solascriptura Doctrine, I would not discourage people from following it , were it not for the fact that they so often use it to say Catholics are worshippers of Satan , and the Church is the whore of Babylon.

But I ask you to pray that I shall not lead anyone astray , including myself , and that I will obey God in all things, in Jesus name. :)
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I think you make some excellent points. I am in complete agreement with you that there are real problems with taking the Bible as the ultimate authority, but that does not make the Catholic church any more of an authority. Them being wrong does not automatically make you right.
I couldn't agree with you more. :)

I don't know that I'm right ,neither do I know that the church is right. Yet so many Protestants claim to know who is saved and who is Damned, (myself included,) because "the Holy Bible says"

By showing them their errors I hope that it will get them to stop judging people and be humble. It doesn't mean I have the truth.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Protestants claim to be solascriptura but they actually are not because they found a source outside of scripture to delete those books that were part of the Christian Bible for quite a few centuries.
To be completely honest with you, I have not met very many sola scriptura adherents.
and I am including my online experiences
 
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