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The Disbelievers

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by FearGod, May 4, 2014.

  1. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    If that is even happening at all, it is a difference of opinion at worst. It can't even conceivably be "fake evidence".

    I know. And it is a good example of what I am talking about, as it turns out.


    I take it that you feel they should not?

    Why should we not?
     
  2. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    FearGod, I notice that you avoided responding to my post. Is there any particular reason for that?
     
  3. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    The verses is speaking about specific disbelievers which i may describe them as enemies of faith.,they don't only disbelieve but even motivate others to disbelieve.
     
  4. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Veteran Member

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    Yes, to an extent. Although, obviously, I wouldn't say the evidence I presented was "false".

    I am currently inclined to believe that there is no afterlife.

    A little more complicated than "just a myth of the past", but that wouldn't be an entirely inaccurate summation of my feelings towards religion, I guess.

    I can't say I've really read enough of the Qur'an to say I fight against it.
     
  5. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Sounds like what Ford would say about Toyota products. Always a good idea to knock the competition. Especially when you don't provide any substantial evidence to support your demonizations and vilifications.
     
  6. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    And that, it would seem, is a bad thing.

    Why?
     
  7. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    If talking about Islam,what are those harmful teachings & ideas ?

    But do you have a sound evidence ?

    And maybe there is.


    I am talking specifically about Islam and not other religions.

    There are some clear signs in the quran that can never be said by a Bedouin living in the 7th century.

    So how to oppose a clear sign,for example one verse says the universe was one piece and that God keep expanding it.

    How to deny it ?but yes the disbelievers do and even work against it.
     
  8. Penumbra

    Penumbra Veteran Member
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    Sure, because they think it's wrong, and in some cases harmful.

    Suppose there is a belief that is hypothetically untrue. In that case, it would be a good thing, for the most part, to not believe in that untrue thing, and then to rationally convince others as to why this belief is untrue. And that's doubly the case if it's untrue and harmful.

    That's how I view Islam and the Qur'an, for the most part. I believe that it's not only an untrue belief, but a harmful one. And this thread itself is an example of why I think it's harmful- the core material itself is divisive, propagates tribalism, breeds hatred or lack of compassion, and promotes a very malevolent worldview in my opinion. There are many religions in the world; you're a believer of one and a disbeliever of many. I'm a believer of none and a disbeliever of many.

    I think a lot of enemies are created by people that define them as enemies, either because of themselves, their culture, or in some cases their ancient books. I'm not your enemy, at least from my point of view. For example, lots of Muslims support those Qur'anic verses about unbelievers being tortured and worship the author of those words, but I would never support such a horrible fate for Muslims. And the Qur'an may say (falsely) that nonbelievers all share certain negative characteristics, but I certainly don't believe that all Muslims share certain negative characteristics.

    The feeling isn't mutual, in other words.
     
  9. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    Misleading is a bad thing,for example, i have 2 roads,there is a label in one road says dangerous and in the other one a label says safe road, now i asked a man what this label is about,he said to me this is nonsense,this road is much better from the other one,go and trust me this label was here long time ago and it is useless,then while i am driving in the dangerous road a man asked me to stop and he warned me not to keep going on this road as i'll be killed and no one ever survived,so in order to convince me he said to me that i'll see some signs which will prove to me that he was right,so if i disregard his advice and the signs and just listened to the first man who misled me,then my end will be death.
     
  10. Alex_G

    Alex_G Enlightner of the Senses

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    I really couldn't work out what you're trying to say. Are you using all those citations to just convey your feelings about people who dont subscribe to Islam with the same fervour as yourself?
     
  11. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    No it is how the quran describes those disbelievers.

    It has nothing to do with my feelings or the disbeliever feelings but about the quran description of the disbelievers.
     
  12. Penumbra

    Penumbra Veteran Member
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    Well unless you disagree with the Qur'an then of course it has something to do with your feelings.
     
  13. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

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    I have seen Muslims come here to this board and argue that the signs really do exist and are even miraculous. I've also seen Christians do that with the Bible, Jews do it with the Torah, Baha'is do it with the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Mormons do it with the Book of Mormon.

    But the 'signs' don't seem real to me. They seem like illusions which the believer creates within his own head.
     
  14. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    What the relation between my feelings and the verses of the quran.

    For example the quran forbids me from drinking alcohol,so what that to do with my feelings.or i don't get your point about the verses and my feelings.

    For example my feelings may let me looking to a sexy girl but the quran forbids me of staring at women,so i can't see your point.
     
  15. AmbiguousGuy

    AmbiguousGuy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and it's one reason that some of us do not accept the Quran as the Word of God.

    God wouldn't say something like that -- no God that we could admire, I mean.

    So we think they are just the words of a man who was trying to make everyone accept his own personal view of things.
     
  16. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    And how do you know that it is the disbelievers of the Quran who are misleading? We tend to disagree.
     
  17. Triumphant_Loser

    Triumphant_Loser Libertarian Egalitarian

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    Funny thing is... Religious people do the exact same thing. The difference is, they have a larger burden of proof for their claims.
     
  18. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    We don't have that. We have two roads that could be either dangerous or safe, and two people saying one is dangerous, though not the same one. It's up to us to decide who is the more credible witness, or to ignore both and check it out for ourselves. I trust we all have the sense not to drive off a cliff just because somebody told us it wasn't really there.
     
  19. Alex_G

    Alex_G Enlightner of the Senses

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    So what do you make of the Quran's position? I would imagine that you have 2 options:

    1. If you believe the Quran to be infallible and true, then you will hear the words ring truth. You will of course need to honestly ask yourself how you can be so sure of its authority.

    2. You see the Quran as a piece of historic literature written by mortal men, albeit one that has many important things to say about life. You would then ask yourself why such a book would be so concerned with disbelievers, and see a possible agenda at work by those who wrote the words.
     
  20. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    Here are a few, for starters:

    • The concept of Hell and eternal punishment. In my opinion, that concept fosters intolerance to people of different beliefs, lack of compassion for them, and support for literally infinite violence in another life or realm of existence.

    The main thing I find to be interesting—albeit in a very negative way—about the concept of eternal punishment is that if we were talking about any authority in the world and attributed such threats of violence, torture, and infinite suffering to it, most people would meet them with rejection and condemnation. But when attributed to a deity, over a billion people seem to have absolutely no problem accepting and even glorifying them as a sign of "greatness," "power," etc., at times.

    You even seem to have started this thread to ask people about their opinions on the Qur'anic descriptions of disbelievers while apparently being in agreement with those descriptions yourself, so I can only ask if you also agree with the other things mentioned in the Qur'an about the supposed fate of the disbelievers:

    And these are just a few verses; there are many others with far more graphic descriptions of the torture in Hell, including descriptions of beating people with maces, making them wear garments of fire, forcing them to drink boiling water, and burning their faces with fire, among other things.

    • Islam teaches that homosexual behavior is a huge sin and aberration that is deserving of severe punishment, which is considered by most Islamic scholars to be death. Yet there's scientific and medical evidence showing that homosexuality is widely practiced in the animal kingdom, which also indicates that sexual orientation isn't really a choice. So, in my view, designating homosexuality as an aberration is no different from saying that a particular skin or eye color is an "aberration" that warrants severely punishing the people who have it.

    • Several aspects of Islamic laws, such as flogging for premarital sex. If all involved parties are consenting adults, then why should we even care about what people do in their bedrooms, much less punish them for it? I understand that centuries ago, there weren't any birth control methods and so people had to be extra careful to avoid unwanted pregnancies, but we have more than one contraception method now. Viewing the laws that forbid premarital sex as absolute and suitable for all times seems to me to be an extremely rigid mentality, especially when there are many people who aren't married and still have perfectly healthy and happy relationships with each other.

    And I think this issue and the homosexuality one are largely intertwined: they're both about dictating what consenting adults should or shouldn't do in the privacy of their bedrooms for no good reason. You asked me which teachings I found to be harmful; if there were ever a clear example of dogmatic teachings influencing people to systematically discriminate against a group of people and deny them their basic rights, it would be teachings like those two.

    Imagine someone telling you that they have found two bacteria doing unspeakable acts on a grain of sand, and that what those two bacteria do on the grain of sand angers them and incites their wrath. That's exactly how I perceive religiously inspired threats and "warnings" to people because of things they do in their bedrooms.

    You seem to have this view that disbelievers are such terrible people, FearGod, but many of them would never wish torture like that described in the above verses to be inflicted on you. Disbelievers are apparently supposed to be "evildoers," liars, deceivers, etc., yet the people who usually claim such things are the ones who wish endless violence and torture on others without a shred of hesitation.

    When you have met a large number of disbelievers like the ones you describe—the ones who "fight religion," as you put it—who wish you and other believers eternal suffering in some sort of extremely violent, grim, and harsh abode, let me know, FearGod. Until then, it seems to me that you're making unfounded assumptions and generalizations about a broad group of people based on your reading and interpretation of religious texts rather than actual interactions with other people.

    On the other hand, I have drawn my conclusions about certain religions and their core teachings from actually reading those religions' scriptures and main texts as well as interacting with many of their followers—many of whom apparently have no problem generalizing about others and accepting verses saying that they will be tortured for eternity.

    Sound evidence for what? Your statement would have to be more specific for me to be able to answer this question properly.

    Maybe. As things stand, though, I believe the probability of that is very small—practically negligible due to lack of evidence.


    Then see above.

    "Clear sign" can be rather subjective; perhaps what you find convincing isn't really so to other people. Have you considered that maybe you're the one who needs to investigate other people's claims in case you're wrong about what you state with so much confidence?
     
    #40 Debater Slayer, May 4, 2014
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
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