The Disbelievers

[Penumbra]

What the relation between my feelings and the verses of the quran.

For example the quran forbids me from drinking alcohol,so what that to do with my feelings.or i don't get your point about the verses and my feelings.

For example my feelings may let me looking to a sexy girl but the quran forbids me of staring at women,so i can't see your point.

You point to the Qur'an as saying certain things about disbelievers.

Do you believe that the Qur'an is correct in this matter, and therefore your view and the Qur'an's view are the same? Or do you believe the Qur'an is incorrect, and that it's not necessarily an accurate description of disbelievers?

Imo, one shouldn't really excuse it by saying, "it's not me, it's the book....and yeah it's the book that I think is true and like to promote."

 

[FearGod]

You point to the Qur'an as saying certain things about disbelievers.

Do you believe that the Qur'an is correct in this matter, and therefore your view and the Qur'an's view are the same? Or do you believe the Qur'an is incorrect, and that it's not necessarily an accurate description of disbelievers?

Imo, one shouldn't really excuse it by saying, "it's not me, it's the book....and yeah it's the book that I think is true and like to promote."

Do you think all disbelievers are the same, IOW Do you think all of them discuss religion in fairness and they search for the truth.or there are some of them who may fit with the verses.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you think all disbelievers are the same, IOW Do you think all of them discuss religion in fairness and they search for the truth.or there are some of them who may fit with the verses.

There are many Muslims who twist and distort other religions' scriptures to fit their agendas; do you think the verses apply to them too?

 

[FearGod]

Here are a few, for starters:

• The concept of Hell and eternal punishment. In my opinion, that concept fosters intolerance to people of different beliefs, lack of compassion for them, and support for literally infinite violence in another life or realm of existence.

The main thing I find to be interesting—albeit in a very negative way—about the concept of eternal punishment is that if we were talking about any authority in the world and attributed such threats of violence, torture, and infinite suffering to it, most people would meet them with rejection and condemnation. But when attributed to a deity, over a billion people seem to have absolutely no problem accepting and even glorifying them as a sign of "greatness," "power," etc., at times.

You even seem to have started this thread to ask people about their opinions on the Qur'anic descriptions of disbelievers while apparently being in agreement with those descriptions yourself, so I can only ask if you also agree with the other things mentioned in the Qur'an about the supposed fate of the disbelievers:


And these are just a few verses; there are many others with far more graphic descriptions of the torture in Hell, including descriptions of beating people with maces, making them wear garments of fire, forcing them to drink boiling water, and burning their faces with fire, among other things.

Let me borrow the concept of Pascal's Wager.

Imagine that those things which you don't believe it to be true becomes true,then you found that eternal punishment is a fact that you have to face,you may say Oh what kind of God is this,or ************,will you regret or you'll face punishment with your head up

What your feeling would be at that moments.

• Islam teaches that homosexual behavior is a huge sin and aberration that is deserving of severe punishment, which is considered by most Islamic scholars to be death. Yet there's scientific and medical evidence showing that homosexuality is widely practiced in the animal kingdom, which also indicates that sexual orientation isn't really a choice. So, in my view, designating homosexuality as an aberration is no different from saying that a particular skin or eye color is an "aberration" that warrants severely punishing the people who have it.

I don't think that we are comparable to animals,animals do sex at the open and with any female,should we do the same.

• Several aspects of Islamic laws, such as flogging for premarital sex. If all involved parties are consenting adults, then why should we even care about what people do in their bedrooms, much less punish them for it? I understand that centuries ago, there weren't any birth control methods and so people had to be extra careful to avoid unwanted pregnancies, but we have more than one contraception method now. Viewing the laws that forbid premarital sex as absolute and suitable for all times seems to me to be an extremely rigid mentality, especially when there are many people who aren't married and still have perfectly healthy and happy relationships with each other.

If they love each others then why not to marry or they can wait tell they are married,also in Islamic law there should be 4 witnesses available that witnessed them in action which is a hard requirement and even if the witnesses were less than 4 then they'll be punished instead of the adulterers.

Do you think it is good attitude to have such sexual relationship which was the main cause of spreading the STD

And I think this issue and the homosexuality one are largely intertwined: they're both about dictating what consenting adults should or shouldn't do in the privacy of their bedrooms for no good reason. You asked me which teachings I found to be harmful; if there were ever a clear example of dogmatic teachings influencing people to systematically discriminate against a group of people and deny them their basic rights, it would be teachings like those two.

I think they can enjoy sex 24 hours a day in the hide ,4 witnesses are hard to be obtained.

Imagine someone telling you that they have found two bacteria doing unspeakable acts on a grain of sand, and that what those two bacteria do on the grain of sand angers them and incites their wrath. That's exactly how I perceive religiously inspired threats and "warnings" to people because of things they do in their bedrooms.

I think God wanted humans to be better than animals and which was there case some hundred thousands of years ago(homo erectus).

You seem to have this view that disbelievers are such terrible people, FearGod, but many of them would never wish torture like that described in the above verses to be inflicted on you. Disbelievers are apparently supposed to be "evildoers," liars, deceivers, etc., yet the people who usually claim such things are the ones who wish endless violence and torture on others without a shred of hesitation.

Not all disbelievers are the same as well not all believers are the same,good people exist regardless of what is their belief.

When you have met a large number of disbelievers like the ones you describe—the ones who "fight religion," as you put it—who wish you and other believers eternal suffering in some sort of extremely violent, grim, and harsh abode, let me know, FearGod. Until then, it seems to me that you're making unfounded assumptions and generalizations about a broad group of people based on your reading and interpretation of religious texts rather than actual interactions with other people.

How you see that the disbelievers promote for prostitution,or that women can work as a prostitute,is it good for women to work as a whore.

On the other hand, I have drawn my conclusions about certain religions and their core teachings from actually reading those religions' scriptures and main texts as well as interacting with many of their followers—many of whom apparently have no problem generalizing about others and accepting verses saying that they will be tortured for eternity.

No one wish those things to happen but again i think Pascal Wager is the winner.

Sound evidence for what? Your statement would have to be more specific for me to be able to answer this question properly.

Evidence that makes us sure that God is a myth

Maybe. As things stand, though, I believe the probability of that is very small—practically negligible due to lack of evidence.


Then see above.

"Clear sign" can be rather subjective; perhaps what you find convincing isn't really so to other people. Have you considered that maybe you're the one who needs to investigate other people's claims in case you're wrong about what you state with so much confidence?

For clear signs.

 

[FearGod]

There are many Muslims who twist and distort other religions' scriptures to fit their agendas; do you think the verses apply to them too?

Which agendas ? if you mean terrorists twisting some verses to legalize killing innocents,then those are the hypocrites which their punishment even more severe than the disbelievers.

 

[Alceste]

Do you think all disbelievers are the same, IOW Do you think all of them discuss religion in fairness and they search for the truth.or there are some of them who may fit with the verses.

I've never met anyone, religious or not, who fits with those verses. They strike me as exceedingly spiteful and ignorant, much like early colonial descriptions of indigenous cultures. Dehumanizing, intolerant and arrogant beyond belief.

 

[Penumbra]

Do you think all disbelievers are the same, IOW Do you think all of them discuss religion in fairness and they search for the truth.or there are some of them who may fit with the verses.

Of course I don't think all disbelievers (non-Muslims? non-theists?) are the same.

There are other followers of Abrahamic religions such as Jews, Christians, etc. Then there are Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs. Then there are various pagans, animists, and so forth. Then there are deists, pantheists, panentheists, unitarians. Then there are agnostics and atheists and syncretists everything in between.

This is a few billion people we're talking about.

I think some people of any nation, creed, or belief, or worldview, can at times be purposely deceiving about one or more things. And many more that are not. And many that simply don't care about religion at all, and view Islam as just some foreign thing. Northern Europe, for example, is one of the least religious places in the world, and they have also the highest standards of living in the world, low crimes rates, low corruption rates, etc. They're among the best places to live by most metrics. Or for example I didn't know what the difference was between a Hindu and a Muslim until I was like 13 and a Hindu explained it to me; it just wasn't important to me and from my young point of view, I just viewed it as some thing that far away people on other continents do and a few rare people around here. Most people I know, simply don't care about Islam and don't know much about it. They give about as much attention to it as you give attention to Jainism.

For any person devoting their life to a belief somewhere in the world, there are countless others that don't care, don't know anything about it, or do know a lot about it but still don't care, or care only in an academic/historical sense, etc.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Let me borrow the concept of Pascal's Wager.

Imagine that those things which you don't believe it to be true becomes true,then you found that eternal punishment is a fact that you have to face,you may say Oh what kind of God is this,or ************,will you regret or you'll face punishment with your head up

What your feeling would be at that moments.

I don't know how I'd feel without actually being in the situation. I'd probably feel surprised, though, since I consider such a scenario to be as unlikely as meeting an angry Hades or Thor in another life.

I think Pascal's Wager is a flawed argument, though. Specifically, it could be used to support just about any belief on the planet. How do you know, for example, that Christianity or Judaism isn't the "only true religion"? What if you saw Ma'at after death and regretted not believing in Pharaonic deities? There are so many what-ifs, so many different beliefs out there, and so many conflicting worldviews that picking just one of them to "wager" one would be basically like stepping into a minefield and hoping that you tread on the one safe patch of ground that supposedly exists somewhere.

Imagine seeing Yahweh angry at you after death and sending you to Hell for not believing that Christianity is the one true religion; if you try to do that, I think you might get a better idea of how I feel toward Pascal's Wager.

I don't think that we are comparable to animals,animals do sex at the open and with any female,should we do the same.

The point is that there's a lot of evidence demonstrating that homosexuality is a perfectly natural and healthy sexual orientation, unlike how a lot of people characterize it. So to say that it is a "sin," "aberration," "abomination," etc., seems rather uninformed and hateful to me.

If they love each others then why not to marry or they can wait tell they are married,also in Islamic law there should be 4 witnesses available that witnessed them in action which is a hard requirement and even if the witnesses were less than 4 then they'll be punished instead of the adulterers.

Four witnesses or not, it seems pointless to punish people for engaging in entirely consensual sexual activities with other adults. Some people don't want to sign a contract regarding their future feelings and in effect make a commitment involving something they can't really control. I don't think they should be forced into marriage just because a religious book says that they should be.

Do you think it is good attitude to have such sexual relationship which was the main cause of spreading the STD

Being careful and informed about the risks of transmission of STDs as well as the methods to avoid them seems to me to be a far better way of avoiding them than restricting people's freedoms or shaming them for engaging in a perfectly natural activity.

I think they can enjoy sex 24 hours a day in the hide ,4 witnesses are hard to be obtained.

And the same thing I said above applies here: I don't think there's any reason to consider it something punishable, four witnesses or not.

I think God wanted humans to be better than animals and which was there case some hundred thousands of years ago(homo erectus).

And being "better" means discriminating against sexual minorities and being hateful to them?

Not all disbelievers are the same as well not all believers are the same,good people exist regardless of what is their belief.

Then why are you only focusing on disbelievers and not talking about people in general?

How you see that the disbelievers promote for prostitution,or that women can work as a prostitute,is it good for women to work as a whore.

If a woman (or man; you know, there are male prostitutes too) chooses to work as a prostitute without any coercion and while fully knowing the risks that being a prostitute carries, then I don't think anyone should restrict her. That doesn't mean I necessarily view prostitution as a positive or healthy profession; it just means that I don't believe in imposing one's personal views and/or beliefs on others.

No one wish those things to happen but again i think Pascal Wager is the winner.

Hopefully Yahweh won't have any issues with you in the next life, then.

Evidence that makes us sure that God is a myth

If you mean "sure" as in "absolutely certain," then I don't think there's any way to be certain whether or not a deity exists. However, given the current lack of evidence (in my opinion) to support the claim that a deity or deities exist, I consider the probability so unlikely as to be negligible.

But why does any of this even matter? Why do you seem to place so much weight on whether or not people you don't even know believe in one deity out of thousands of others? If the purpose of any given religion is to better humankind, then shouldn't we focus on things that actually have practical effects instead of other people's beliefs regarding purely theological and metaphysical issues?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Which agendas ? if you mean terrorists twisting some verses to legalize killing innocents,then those are the hypocrites which their punishment even more severe than the disbelievers.

I mean preachers like Zakir Naik and others who spread falsehoods about other religions so that they can appear to be supporting the "one true belief system." Many Muslims support such people instead of calling them hypocrites, too.

 

[FearGod]

Of course I don't think all disbelievers (non-Muslims? non-theists?) are the same.

There are other followers of Abrahamic religions such as Jews, Christians, etc. Then there are Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs. Then there are various pagans, animists, and so forth. Then there are deists, pantheists, panentheists, unitarians. Then there are agnostics and atheists and syncretists everything in between.

This is a few billion people we're talking about.

I think some people of any nation, creed, or belief, or worldview, can at times be purposely deceiving about one or more things. And many more that are not. And many that simply don't care about religion at all, and view Islam as just some foreign thing. Northern Europe, for example, is one of the least religious places in the world, and they have also the highest standards of living in the world, low crimes rates, low corruption rates, etc. They're among the best places to live by most metrics. Or for example I didn't know what the difference was between a Hindu and a Muslim until I was like 13 and a Hindu explained it to me; it just wasn't important to me and from my young point of view, I just viewed it as some thing that far away people on other continents do and a few rare people around here. Most people I know, simply don't care about Islam and don't know much about it. They give about as much attention to it as you give attention to Jainism.

For any person devoting their life to a belief somewhere in the world, there are countless others that don't care, don't know anything about it, or do know a lot about it but still don't care, or care only in an academic/historical sense, etc.

Have a look on world suicide rate

 

[Alceste]

Have a look on world suicide rate

Looks like people in certain regions are too busy killing others to kill themselves.

They say depression is anger turned inward. Perhaps that is preferable to the effects of anger turned outward.

 

[FearGod]

I don't know how I'd feel without actually being in the situation. I'd probably feel surprised, though, since I consider such a scenario to be as unlikely as meeting an angry Hades or Thor in another life.

I think Pascal's Wager is a flawed argument, though. Specifically, it could be used to support just about any belief on the planet. How do you know, for example, that Christianity or Judaism isn't the "only true religion"? What if you saw Ma'at after death and regretted not believing in Pharaonic deities? There are so many what-ifs, so many different beliefs out there, and so many conflicting worldviews that picking just one of them to "wager" one would be basically like stepping into a minefield and hoping that you tread on the one safe patch of ground that supposedly exists somewhere.

Regardless of religion i believe that doing good deeds and have some faith on next life isn't a problem,but not believing and even preaching the others as not to believe and motivate women to sell their bodies as source of income if they have to is a problematic to me.

Imagine seeing Yahweh angry at you after death and sending you to Hell for not believing that Christianity is the one true religion; if you try to do that, I think you might get a better idea of how I feel toward Pascal's Wager.

I think all religions are instructing about morals and ethics,so i don't have to worry if i know what is good and what is bad.

The point is that there's a lot of evidence demonstrating that homosexuality is a perfectly natural and healthy sexual orientation, unlike how a lot of people characterize it. So to say that it is a "sin," "aberration," "abomination," etc., seems rather uninformed and hateful to me.

And it is natural thing among animals to rape and to have sex by force,so can we apply it among humans too and as not to be a sin but a natural thing that happens among animals.

Four witnesses or not, it seems pointless to punish people for engaging in entirely consensual sexual activities with other adults. Some people don't want to sign a contract regarding their future feelings and in effect make a commitment involving something they can't really control. I don't think they should be forced into marriage just because a religious book says that they should be.

But still there are many families regardless of religion respecting the marriage bonds and avoiding sex before marriage.

What do you think the purpose of sex ? some minutes of enjoyment or to bring up a family or both,if both then it means marriage and children.

Being careful and informed about the risks of transmission of STDs as well as the methods to avoid them seems to me to be a far better way of avoiding them than restricting people's freedoms or shaming them for engaging in a perfectly natural activity.

Yes using condoms properly , antibacterial creams and alcohol before and after sex.

And the same thing I said above applies here: I don't think there's any reason to consider it something punishable, four witnesses or not.

So you motivate freedom of sex,may i ask you a question ?

Do you accept your daughter to have sex with her boyfriend and then after one month they are separated and then to have it with a new boyfriend, please a sincere reply

And being "better" means discriminating against sexual minorities and being hateful to them?

Which minorities and how being hateful to them.

Then why are you only focusing on disbelievers and not talking about people in general?

The quran is talking about specific disbelievers,the ones working against God's message,not all disbelievers are doing the same.

If a woman (or man; you know, there are male prostitutes too) chooses to work as a prostitute without any coercion and while fully knowing the risks that being a prostitute carries, then I don't think anyone should restrict her. That doesn't mean I necessarily view prostitution as a positive or healthy profession; it just means that I don't believe in imposing one's personal views and/or beliefs on others.

Why ?there are some countries banned prostitution such as Sweden and even some states in the US.

Hopefully Yahweh won't have any issues with you in the next life, then.

Believing that God is One and do exist,then no,i wouldn't be worried in the next life.

If you mean "sure" as in "absolutely certain," then I don't think there's any way to be certain whether or not a deity exists. However, given the current lack of evidence (in my opinion) to support the claim that a deity or deities exist, I consider the probability so unlikely as to be negligible.

So we can't disprove God's existence

But why does any of this even matter? Why do you seem to place so much weight on whether or not people you don't even know believe in one deity out of thousands of others? If the purpose of any given religion is to better humankind, then shouldn't we focus on things that actually have practical effects instead of other people's beliefs regarding purely theological and metaphysical issues?

The quran point to one fact that the disbelievers deny the clear signs and then bring false evidences and lies just to mislead others,my question is why the disbelievers need to preach against God's existence,why not letting those who believes and have faith to discuss which religion have more truth,as for the atheists,they don't have a religion to discuss.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The quran point to one fact that the disbelievers deny the clear signs and then bring false evidences and lies just to mislead others,my question is why the disbelievers need to preach against God's existence,why not letting those who believes and have faith to discuss which religion have more truth,as for the atheists,they don't have a religion to discuss.

Because, believe it or not, the beliefs of many religious people have a direct impact on us and the society we live in. The vast majority of objections to equal rights for homosexuals, for example, come from religious groups. When religion and a theistic worldview have a dramatic influence on world events on a global scale, it's important that we question the validity of those beliefs on a basic level. Why are you so afraid of a little intellectual debate?

 

[FearGod]

Because, believe it or not, the beliefs of many religious people have a direct impact on us and the society we live in. The vast majority of objections to equal rights for homosexuals, for example, come from religious groups. When religion and a theistic worldview have a dramatic influence on world events on a global scale, it's important that we question the validity of those beliefs on a basic level. Why are you so afraid of a little intellectual debate?

And what was the out come of it,millions are suffering from Aids all around the world,some even not aware that they are living with it.

CDC warns gay men of ‘epidemic’ HIV rates

by Thaddeus Baklinski


WASHINGTON, DC, July 8, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A fact sheet released at the end of June by the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) warns that HIV rates, already at epidemic proportions, are continuing to climb steadily among men who have sex with men (MSM).

Despite the disturbing data, the United States' leading gay advocacy organizations - known pejoratively as "Gay Inc." by some HIV activists - barely make mention of or allocate any resources towards fighting the scourge, instead focusing on things like passing gay "marriage," fighting anti-gay bullying, and "fostering positive places of worship," according to US News.

"The recent rise of HIV/AIDS ... is huge and it's not talked about because 'Gay Inc.' says nothing about it," Peter Staley, founder of the Treatment Action Group, told US News.
The CDC states that their analysis did not examine the factors driving the increases in HIV/AIDS in MSM.

LifeSiteNews Mobile | CDC warns gay men of ‘epidemic’ HIV rates

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Have a look on world suicide rate

Great... Now can we get a map of the homicide rate for the middle eastern Muslim countries?

 

[Philomath]

What is the purpose of this thread?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And what was the out come of it,millions are suffering from Aids all around the world,some even not aware that they are living with it.

The fact that millions of people worldwide are not educated on safe sex is not the fault of homosexuals. If all homosexuality boils down to to you is an STD, then perhaps you need to take a very strong look at how you view other human beings.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

And what was the out come of it,millions are suffering from Aids all around the world,some even not aware that they are living with it.

CDC warns gay men of ‘epidemic’ HIV rates

by Thaddeus Baklinski


WASHINGTON, DC, July 8, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A fact sheet released at the end of June by the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) warns that HIV rates, already at epidemic proportions, are continuing to climb steadily among men who have sex with men (MSM).

Despite the disturbing data, the United States' leading gay advocacy organizations - known pejoratively as "Gay Inc." by some HIV activists - barely make mention of or allocate any resources towards fighting the scourge, instead focusing on things like passing gay "marriage," fighting anti-gay bullying, and "fostering positive places of worship," according to US News.

"The recent rise of HIV/AIDS ... is huge and it's not talked about because 'Gay Inc.' says nothing about it," Peter Staley, founder of the Treatment Action Group, told US News.
The CDC states that their analysis did not examine the factors driving the increases in HIV/AIDS in MSM.

LifeSiteNews Mobile | CDC warns gay men of ‘epidemic’ HIV rates

Contrary to popular belief, AIDS is not a "Gay disease" there are straight people with it, and *gasp*... Even gay people without it! AIDS comes from risky sex practices between any 2 people, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. This may come as a surprise to you, but I am a celibate bisexual guy who does not have HIV or AIDS. I'm also a blood donor for God sakes!

 

[Amechania]

What is the purpose of this thread?

Commentary on Islamic scriptures regarding attitude toward infidels. Reactions are mixed.

 

[Philomath]

Commentary on Islamic scriptures regarding attitude toward infidels. Reactions are mixed.

I see. Well I'm a happy being an infidel