The Catholic Church should be shut down

[metis]

Whether the Church is deliberately targeted by international efforts with the express purpose of shutting down like the criminal organisation it is...

Stereotyping an organization and then condemning it's entirety is not any more moral than than some of the atrocities that has been committed by some in the Church. You make a blanket condemnation that clearly is not true to life, plus you are willing to punish all within an organization even though only a small minority has committed these atrocities. If any organization that you belong to were to have such a similar situation, and I were to condemn all in it, including you, would you accept that?

As for the rest of your post, I don't have the time to deal with that right now.

 

[metis]

Yea they were. Covering up sexual abuses against kids. They both did it.

And exactly how do you know that? "Allegations" and "facts" are not synonymous words.

 

[Shad]

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I'll answer both questions simultaneously.





Well it would remove a strongly regressive force which is causing so many problems for our species. The global child abuse scandal is merely the latest in a line of problems that can be traced back to the Church.

1. The spread of AIDS in parts of Africa due to the Church's lie-filled preaching against the use of condoms;

You can not put blame solely on the RCC. People choose to have sex, omit their health issues to partners, etc, etc. Personal responsibility is far more a factor than the RCC in my view.

 

[LuisDantas]

Fair enough..... so we need to be careful about where we throw our stones, who we defame and who we blame, not clutching at weak indirect evidence and looking upon it as sure-fire fact.

Each charged person deserves a defence. Each convicted person needs a just sentence.

That too. But I think that, above all, we all should do our best to actually enable a path of recovery for both victims and perpetrators, actual and potential.

Priests should be encouraged to admit their failings and to learn better, if at all possible before any damage occurs.

Flock should be encouraged to watch for unnecessary risks and to learn better as well. For instance, confessions should occur in privacy, but not in complete isolation.

Parents should be ready at hand and feel free to tell their children not to allow touch that they do not feel confortable with.

Offending priests should be given the opportunity to repent in some form of public admission. They should also be encouraged to teach their peers to avoid the temptations, and how.

And, of course, priest celibacy should be rediscussed.

 

[paarsurrey]

That too. But I think that, above all, we all should do our best to actually enable a path of recovery for both victims and perpetrators, actual and potential.

Priests should be encouraged to admit their failings and to learn better, if at all possible before any damage occurs.

Flock should be encouraged to watch for unnecessary risks and to learn better as well. For instance, confessions should occur in privacy, but not in complete isolation.

Parents should be ready at hand and feel free to tell their children not to allow touch that they do not feel confortable with.

Offending priests should be given the opportunity to repent in some form of public admission. They should also be encouraged to teach their peers to avoid the temptations, and how.

And, of course, priest celibacy should be rediscussed.

"And, of course, priest celibacy should be re-discussed"

That is a good point. Jesus did not give any teaching in favor of celibacy.

Regards

 

[metis]

Jesus did not give any teaching in favor of celibacy.

But Paul did, plus Jesus appeared to be celibate.

 

[oldbadger]

I did. All the numbers I found were drastically higher. Even the Vatican acknowledges that 1.5-5% of priests sexually abused children, so I don't see how you decided that 99% of priests are "innocent."

Ahhh........... so you do trust the Vatican's word after all.
And in a previous post you mentioned that the Vatican has effected beneficial actions on occasions?
I think you're warming slightly, after all.

 

[Deidre]

And exactly how do you know that? "Allegations" and "facts" are not synonymous words.

It's funny, we didn't say that when all the accusers within the #metoo movement came out and pointed fingers at all their sexual harassers, and claimed sexual assault. All those guys stepped down, or were fired from their jobs, or were arrested. As they should be. Why is the Catholic Church above the law? It shouldn't be. These aren't allegations, 300 priests abused over 1000 kids in Pittsburgh Diocese alone. Under Cardinal Wuerhl's watch, when he was Bishop. He shifted the priests who were hurting kids to different parishes throughout his tenure as Bishop, the reports say, only for those priests to do it again...and again. It's disgustingly heinous, and he should have been arrested then, let alone promoted all the way up the ranks to becoming a Cardinal. Pope Francis was involved with allowing an abusive Cardinal to come back from being sanctioned. Pope Benedict put sanctions on Cardinal McCarrick, according to the reports, and then Pope Francis restored his privileges and made him his trust advisor. He made an abuser...his trusted advisor. Cardinal McCarrick has been reported as sexually harassing and having forced sex with seminarians. And a minor child.

It's really scary. But, the problem is many of the people who were abusing, are deceased. But, some are alive, and they should be defrocked and step down...at the very least. Cardinal Wuerhl should go to jail. I'm not sure if the Pope should join him, but he shouldn't be a leader of the church, at least that much is for sure.

 

[oldbadger]

That too. But I think that, above all, we all should do our best to actually enable a path of recovery for both victims and perpetrators, actual and potential.

Priests should be encouraged to admit their failings and to learn better, if at all possible before any damage occurs.

Flock should be encouraged to watch for unnecessary risks and to learn better as well. For instance, confessions should occur in privacy, but not in complete isolation.

Parents should be ready at hand and feel free to tell their children not to allow touch that they do not feel confortable with.

Offending priests should be given the opportunity to repent in some form of public admission. They should also be encouraged to teach their peers to avoid the temptations, and how.

And, of course, priest celibacy should be rediscussed.

Very good ideas, all.
I do think that crimes should be punished as well..... where I live a person who admits guilt and saves the victim's feelings, saves money on expensive trials and shows remorse, honesty and a wish to change tends to get a lighter sentence.

 

[LuisDantas]

But Paul did, plus Jesus appeared to be celibate.

Fair enough.

But it seems to me that nonetheless there is legitimate ground to question whether Christians, even priests, should pursue celibacy.

 

[metis]

Fair enough.

But it seems to me that nonetheless there is legitimate ground to question whether Christians, even priests, should pursue celibacy.

As you well know, it's also encouraged in Buddhism, and my guess is that they have some similar problems with it as well since it's hard to buck basic human nature. As for myself, I do not advocate celibacy, including within the CC, but to each his own.

 

[LuisDantas]

As you well know, it's also encouraged in Buddhism,

To a considerably lesser extent, and one that is highly dependent on social environment and school, though.

and my guess is that they have some similar problems with it as well since it's hard to buck basic human nature. As for myself, I do not advocate celibacy, including within the CC, but to each his own.

Again, fair enough.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Yes. Sure. That's called aiding and abetting a crime where I live, and carries the same sentence as the original criminal action, usually.

But there is also Perversion of the Course of Justice, and where any might try to 'fit up' an innocent then they should get a sentence commensurate with such a serious crime.

Good thing we won't need to worry about that once the Church starts turning over all relevant documents relating to historic child abuse among the clergy and the legal system will be able to pinpoint who's in need of charges. Which I'm sure it will do any day now.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ahhh........... so you do trust the Vatican's word after all.

I trust the Vatican as far as I can comfortably throw the Popemobile; I think they’re seriously underestimating the number of predators they’re harbouring.

But what I’d like to know is why you think there are even fewer pedophile priests than what the Vatican admits to.

 

[oldbadger]

Good thing we won't need to worry about that once the Church starts turning over all relevant documents relating to historic child abuse among the clergy and the legal system will be able to pinpoint who's in need of charges. Which I'm sure it will do any day now.

You see?
The RCC will GIVE its files to the law enforcers, whoever they are going to be.

While we're at it maybe we could clean out the dirt amongst the law enforcers?

 

[oldbadger]

I trust the Vatican as far as I can comfortably throw the Popemobile; I think they’re seriously underestimating the number of predators they’re harbouring.

Well, you did grasp, trust and repeat the Vatican, no?

But what I’d like to know is why you think there are even fewer pedophile priests than what the Vatican admits to.

My first (only) internet website showed a figure of 4000.
Your chosen site, the Vatican, guessed at between 1.5% and 5% so I don't think that your figure is any more fixed than the one that I saw.

I took the very first site that I saw......... did you rummage about a bit?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, you did grasp, trust and repeat the Vatican, no?


My first (only) internet website showed a figure of 4000.
Your chosen site, the Vatican, guessed at between 1.5% and 5% so I don't think that your figure is any more fixed than the one that I saw.

I took the very first site that I saw......... did you rummage about a bit?

Are you actually having trouble understanding what I'm saying to you or are you deliberately trolling? Neither would surprise me.

 

[metis]

Why is the Catholic Church above the law?

It's not above the law and I never made any assertion as such.

What needs to be done, as I've stated many times on these these threads are thorough investigations with prosecutions of those who may be guilty of paedophilia or hiding and/or just moving around pedophiles. However, it is simply unfair to blame the entire church for the actions of a minority.

 

[Deidre]

It's not above the law and I never made any assertion as such.

What needs to be done, as I've stated many times on these these threads are thorough investigations with prosecutions of those who may be guilty of paedophilia or hiding and/or just moving around pedophiles. However, it is simply unfair to blame the entire church for the actions of a minority.

I’m blaming who is in charge. That would be the Vatican. Just like if you sue a company, the company is sued even if the problem started with one person. The Vatican is responsible for overseeing the Church.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I’m blaming who is in charge. That would be the Vatican. Just like if you sue a company, the company is sued even if the problem started with one person. The Vatican is responsible for overseeing the Church.

Kinda sorta. Bishops do have a degree of independence, but I don't know of a single diocese on the planet that hasn't been touched by the abuse scandal.