The Catholic Church should be shut down

[metis]

I’m blaming who is in charge. That would be the Vatican. Just like if you sue a company, the company is sued even if the problem started with one person. The Vatican is responsible for overseeing the Church.

Yes, but we still have to be careful to make sure we deal with those who have caused this and not blame all there either.

The Church has been heavily fined in certain locales, so there is a "corporate" penalty being exacted, but I also think that's not enough and we must go after the individuals whom have done it, including those whom have "hid" those whom have done it. Here in the States, that process has already been underway, and it's being supported by the USCCB (United States Council of Catholic Bishops).

 

[Deidre]

We need an ''agree'' option here.

 

[tayla]

The Catholic Church should be shut down

If you want to shut down institutions having corruption, shut down all governments and corporations also.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you want to shut down institutions having corruption, shut down all governments and corporations also.

How about before we worry about nebulous "corruption," we start with human trafficking?

I would certainly support shutting down every government, corporation, and religious organization that has engaged in human trafficking, including the Catholic Church. Would you support this?

 

[tayla]

I would certainly support shutting down every government, corporation, and religious organization that has engaged in human trafficking, including the Catholic Church. Would you support this?

Yes. Where do I sign up?

And don't forget about illegitimate institutions such as crime rings and etc.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes. Where do I sign up?

Right here:

https://www.change.org/p/help-spain-s-stolen-babies

And don't forget about illegitimate institutions such as crime rings and etc.

Like this?

The craziest financial schemes that the Vatican Bank tried to cover up

I fully support shutting down any bank with as heavy ties to money laundering and the mafia as the Vatican Bank has. Do you?

 

[Deidre]

If you want to shut down institutions having corruption, shut down all governments and corporations also.

Shut it all down!

 

[Juan Savage]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

Ironic, considering that the only reason you think abuse of children is bad is because of the Catholic Church.

 

[Deidre]

Ironic, considering that the only reason you think abuse of children is bad is because of the Catholic Church.

Your comment makes no sense. Never stated or inferred anything such as that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

I agree, but here's the problem.... it's not just a run-of-the-mill "organization". It (the vatican) is a country with a certain sovereignity, with the pope being some kind of head of state.

Technically, "shutting it down" would include invading a nation, annexing it and overthrowing its government.
Technically, that would be an act of war.

Stupid lawyer talk, but it is what it is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree, but here's the problem.... it's not just a run-of-the-mill "organization". It (the vatican) is a country with a certain sovereignity, with the pope being some kind of head of state.

Technically, "shutting it down" would include invading a nation, annexing it and overthrowing its government.
Technically, that would be an act of war.

Stupid lawyer talk, but it is what it is.

Neither Vatican City nor the Holy See are sovereign states. I can get into the details of why if you're curious.

... but speaking of "lawyer talk" - generally, each diocese is incorporated separately. This is what's let the Catholic Church as a whole, in many cases, avoid paying compensation to abuse victims: the one diocese that had the judgement against it files for bankruptcy, but the Vatican and the other dioceses - since they're separate legal entities- aren't forced to pay the balance.

For the most part "shutting down the Catholic Church" would mean shutting down a few hundred(?) separate corporations that have a loose affiliation with each other. If that leaves Vatican City intact as a place where the Pope can ineffectually complaining about how his church is hard done by, that would be pretty well equivalent to shutting down the Catholic Church as a whole.

Personally, my approach would be to just repeat the approach that was used for the Mount Cashel Orphanage: after the abuse there was uncovered and the Christian Brothers were successfully sued, the orphanage property was seized and sold to developers, with the proceeds going to the victims. The developers demolished the orphanage and built a supermarket on the site.

If there were a way to repeat this worldwide, only without any burden of legal costs on the victims, that would be fine by me.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Neither Vatican City nor the Holy See are sovereign states. I can get into the details of why if you're curious.

No need as I think it would derail discussion.
But you sparked my interest and will read up myself when I get some time to.

I was under the impression the Vatican was indeed considered an independent state in and of itself.

 

[metis]

I was under the impression the Vatican was indeed considered an independent state in and of itself.

You are correct: Vatican City (/ˈvætɪkən/ ( listen)), officially the Vatican City State (Italian: Stato della Città del Vaticano;[g] Latin: Status Civitatis Vaticanae),[h]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City#cite_note-20 is the Holy See's independent city state, an enclave within Rome, Italy.[12] The Vatican City State, also known as The Vatican, became independent from Italy with the Lateran Treaty (1929), and it is a distinct territory under "full ownership, exclusive dominion, and sovereign authority and jurisdiction" of the Holy See, itself a sovereign entity of international law, which maintains the city state's temporal, diplomatic, and spiritual independence.[j][13] With an area of 49 hectares (121 acres)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City#cite_note-area-10 and a population of about 825,[c] it is the smallest sovereign state in the world by both area and population.[14] -- Vatican City - Wikipedia

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No need as I think it would derail discussion.
But you sparked my interest and will read up myself when I get some time to.

I was under the impression the Vatican was indeed considered an independent state in and of itself.

Vatican City isn't the entity that generally has relations with sovereign nations; the entity that sends diplomatic missions to other countries, enters treaties, etc. is the Holy See.

... but the Holy See is just the Archdiocese of Rome. Most of the Holy See is Italian territory.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are correct: Vatican City (/ˈvætɪkən/ ( listen)), officially the Vatican City State (Italian: Stato della Città del Vaticano;[g] Latin: Status Civitatis Vaticanae),[h] is the Holy See's independent city state, an enclave within Rome, Italy.[12] The Vatican City State, also known as The Vatican, became independent from Italy with the Lateran Treaty (1929), and it is a distinct territory under "full ownership, exclusive dominion, and sovereign authority and jurisdiction" of the Holy See, itself a sovereign entity of international law, which maintains the city state's temporal, diplomatic, and spiritual independence.[j][13] With an area of 49 hectares (121 acres) and a population of about 825,[c] it is the smallest sovereign state in the world by both area and population.[14] -- Vatican City - Wikipedia

@metis has let me know that I'm on his ignore list, but for everyone else:

Since - as the article points out - Vatican City is under the "full ownership [and] exclusive dominion" of the Holy See, Vatican City is not sovereign in its own right.

The claim that Vatican City is a state is based on this idea that two entities that are both almost halfway to statehood add up to a full state when taken together.

... but the entity that has (sorta) exclusive jurisdiction over its territory has no relations with other sovereign states, and the entity that has relations with other states does not have exclusive jurisdiction over its territory.

And neither entity has a permanent population.