Thank you very much! I don't know why with my current set up its a big hassle for me and really hard to navigate the site, but that link should do the trick! Thank you again!
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Thank you very much! I don't know why with my current set up its a big hassle for me and really hard to navigate the site, but that link should do the trick! Thank you again!
I totally agree, the Jesus I believe in and think is a good role model would never want children to be killed (because I think that is wrong and bad), and there is even that verse in the New Testament about something like "whoever harms these little ones" that they should have some heavy thing tied to them and throw them in the water to drown. These are the two parts together:
Many thanks for sharing your views on this, Artis Magistra.
I believe it is very important to always read spiritual texts in a spiritual frame of mind. Otherwise, they can lead to much harm and suffering.
I read the words symbolically and metaphorically and so, like you re. the Qur'an, I would say in regards to NT that Jesus does not want us to kill [our] children or anyone, for that matter. Just saying.
Humbly
Hermit
Many thanks for sharing your views on this, Artis Magistra.
I believe it is very important to always read spiritual texts in a spiritual frame of mind. Otherwise, they can lead to much harm and suffering.
I read the words symbolically and metaphorically and so, like you re. the Qur'an, I would say in regards to NT that Jesus does not want us to kill [our] children or anyone, for that matter. Just saying.
Humbly
Hermit
Successful indeed are the believers Who are humble in their prayers, And who shun vain conversation, And who are payers of the poor-due; And who guard their modesty - Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy. Quran 23:1-6
This is just one of the many, MANY verses that comes to my mind. I've forgotten most of the verses. I remember I gave about 15 verses talking about slaves and their treatment in other topic around 3-4 months ago when talking about the subject with another Muslim brother here. Regardless, considering the fact that, historically, Prophet Muhammad S.A.W himself had slaves and engaged in slave trading [I can think of Maria al-Qibtiyya] is, in itself, a concrete evidence that Islam promotes slavery.
Now, if The Holy Qur'an was really ever-guiding moral compass, why didn't it just explicitly abolished slavery, explained it's evils and set up penalties against it's practicing like it did with alcohol and swine [which, btw, are no way NEAR slavery in terms of overall harmfulness]?
Maybe I am getting something wrong here, but history and Qur'an is proving otherwise
Great. Thanks for quoting the verse you are referring to.
Hellbound. Please note that in the verse you quoted, the word slaves is inside brackets, and not in the sentence. The sentence used here is "Ma malakut aymaanukum" and honestly I am very well aware of this. It doesn't mean slaves in any sense whatsoever. People assume it means slaves so they put the word slave inside brackets as inference.
What is the other verse that you speak of?
This is still, how do you say, "good press."
The fact remains that whites in America owned slaves for a very brief period, to a very low percentage.
(Snopes fudges this by listing families owning slaves, then does funny math to declare that between 3% and 49% of families owned slaves. If you measured distant relations, you could say anything you want, but the fact is, there are only so plantations around and not 49% of the people were even involved in agriculture. Btw if my great aunt owns slaves, but we have disowned her, how is it our business if she owns all these people? The actual number was about 300,000 out 31 million, which they declare up and down is not the real stastistic, but adds up to about 1.4%)
Many of them were freed before the 245 years
American slavery: Separating fact from myth
of slavery were up. This was what abolitionists were all about. These "families of slaves" might have consisted of one owner and many brothers and children who would just as soon free them but for the logistical nightmare that all of these free people now have to manage their own affairs (or to put it anorher way, while it's very idealistic to think freeing slaves is as simple as buying their freedom, if you really care about them, there's the consideration of making sure they don't starve once free) and some cases the whites weren't as wealthy as history books would have you believe. In any case, after Civil War, slavery ended, and there was some Jim Crow stuff, but it mostly died down. Or should have, except for dredging up resentment through reparations and things like Critical Race Theory (fun fact: you know what the actual political party of most slaveowners was? Democrat).
By contrast, the Quran hauls out some story about some freed slave and we are supposed to believe the good press. Yet slavery has persisted 1400 years. They enslaved blacks. They enslaved whites (you know those sexy harem girls in pictures of Middle East in popular media? White slaves of Muslim owners). And they'll probably enslave you and me once they make this country Muslim.
Why do they assume it means slaves? Was it because of other commentaries? How did they come to this idea and continue to perpetuate it?
"Why" someone claims Ma Malakut Aymanukum meant slaves is a mystery really. One can only speculate. But if you read the Quran, all the verses, and all the verses mentioning Yamin or oaths you will easily realise that it can never mean slaves. Impossible.
Have you seen this thread:
Religion is not about judging others, it is about judging one self.
How widespread currently, and how actively promoted, is this corrective information regarding the truth of the Qur'an and its contents, as it seems important to me that people come to know this, most especially Muslims themselves who may be relying on these difficult or outright false interpretations and translations.
Alright, that was a nice, thorough, and accurate seeming answer which provided a lot of information. So how about the idea of concubines, can you give me a little more information on that? For example, what do you know about the idea and various opinions or verses from the Qur'an if there are any regarding the actual practice of a slave or concubine or something, what that is or would be, and having sex with such. Also, there is a movement of people who are homosexual Muslims, does the Qur'an explicitly condemn sex acts between males and anal sex (between males or in general). I'm familiar at least with the apparent condemnation of the abomination and "choosing men instead of women" or whatever that the people of Lot were doing, but somehow the homosexual Muslims are finding ways around that to get into the places they want to go.Well, its average, day to day discussion in Madrasa for a long long time. But I really dont know how to measure how widespread it is brother. What I can say is that its pretty normal discussion.
If you note most of the translations will say "those who your right hand possess". Some translations would say "Oaths". Its actually rarely that you would see someone refer to it directly as slaves.
But the perception on the internet is built not by analysis, minority view, majority view, linguistics or even wide speed discussion. Internet top of mind awareness is created by those who pick what they like, when they like.
You can rely on one thing. People on the internet generally use popular views when convenient, and at other times to insult a religion if they want, they will pick the minority view. So its based on the agenda.
Thus, when you ask for "how wide spread", its not answerable. I hope you understand.
Alright, that was a nice, thorough, and accurate seeming answer which provided a lot of information. So how about the idea of concubines, can you give me a little more information on that? For example, what do you know about the idea and various opinions or verses from the Qur'an if there are any regarding the actual practice of a slave or concubine or something, what that is or would be, and having sex with such. Also, there is a movement of people who are homosexual Muslims, does the Qur'an explicitly condemn sex acts between males and anal sex (between males or in general). I'm familiar at least with the apparent condemnation of the abomination and "choosing men instead of women" or whatever that the people of Lot were doing, but somehow the homosexual Muslims are finding ways around that to get into the places they want to go.
So I'd like to know also about the multiple wives thing. When I read the Qur'an, because it seems to say "only if you can treat them equally, and you'll never be able to treat them equally" which seems to say that you can really only marry one woman at a time since you can't treat more than one equally, but maybe you could clarify this based on your understanding and the ancient Arabic.
So to recap, if it isn't too much trouble, I'd like to know about:
1. Concubines/Slaves and the degree of freedom of having sex with them, or if one can have sex with them even if they aren't married to them but otherwise has them in some kind of position as a concubine or slave (and what that would be or what that agreement would be). You can include ideas regarding any allowance or loopholes regarding sex or sex acts before marriage (I currently don't think any such things are allowed).
2. What qualifies as a marriage, and what is a slave, an oath bound thing right hand possessing thing, all these different distinctions clarified.
3. Permission regarding saying "Bismillahirahmaniraheem" over food not slaughtered in any particularly Islamic fashion and what that specific fashion would be based on the Qur'an (as far as I'm aware, it would basically be killing the animal after saying "Bismillahirahmaniraheem").
4. How many prayers or salat periods are mentioned in the Qur'an (people spread that it says only 3, but I've seen or thought I saw more, all five, maybe even six as an additional one).
5. People also say the Qur'an doesn't say how to worship, but I think it pretty much does in general, you can clarify that and how you choose to worship if you do.
6. People complain about Slaves and Slavery,
Concubines and Sex with Slaves,
Multiple Wives,
The Age of Marriage Permission and Marrying little kids or age of consent or adulthood,
Killing of Enemies and Enemy Combatants and Self Defense or Seeking Out people to Slay,
The Qur'anic opinions of or words against other groups such as Jews, Christians, Polytheists, etc, and
what qualifies as a Muslim or a Non-Muslim or especially a Polytheist when Hindus today for example often claim to be Monotheistic,
Exclusivity of Beliefs or Who Gets into Paradise,
Permanence of Hell or Not (when the Qur'an seems to criticize people who popularly used to say that Hell is temporary, it makes me think it isn't),
The Sunni belief (which I think is disturbing and blasphemous) that the Qur'an is Co-Existing Eternally with Allah (what exactly are they calling the Qur'an? Allah's ability to create information, or this book starring the Pharaoh and other characters? If they mean this book existing eternally and the Pharaoh existing eternally in it, they are completely out of their minds).
7. Why, if at all, should any of the Hadiths or, other than those, commentaries be trusted at all? Are Muslims very much necessarily dependent on these, and would Islam based off of the Qur'an end up nothing like the currently practiced range of Muslim beliefs and practices? If so, what would these major differences, at least theoretically, be?
8. What is the status, rank, rights, and what are the freedoms of women, children, men, slaves, etc. What would an Islamic or Qur'anic government look like and act like, and could you list out the commandments or laws of the Qur'an the way the Jews have their 613 Commandments? I think the Qur'an probably has a whole lot fewer than 613 as it seems very simple to me.
9, When did you become familiar with Ancient Arabic or learn these things, and what kind of ethnic community did you grow up in and around and influenced by or where is your family from or what kind of a cultural background or cultural Islam do you originate from? What do you consider yourself now, and why do you visit forums like these if you are being very honest with yourself? What is the hope and plan and agenda if any, in the most introspective and authentic explanation possible?
10. How acceptable do you personally (or based on the Qur'an) find the use of names of so-called "pagan Gods" if they are taken to be epithets of qualities of Allah (even if other people misuse these words or names to refer to other things, just as they do the term "Allah")? For example, Shiva meaning Auspicious, when we consider Allah the Shiva, or Vishnu meaning Pervading, when we consider Allah the Pervading, or Lucifer as Light Bearer, when consider Allah the Light Bearer who brings the light and makes people see or blinds them, or even Apollo as Destroyer, when we consider Allah the Apollo and Apollyon or Destroyer?
Bro, Ill tell you what! Why not ope a new thread with this exact same post of yours? This calls for a whole discussion of its own. Each question might require a whole chapter in a book.
I till contribute as much as I can.
Actually oil rich nations such as Saudi Arabia could easily fund scientific surveys to determine how widespread certain views are, but it would possibly go against vested interests to have accurate information concerning the views of MuslimsThus, when you ask for "how wide spread", its not answerable.
Actually oil rich nations such as Saudi Arabia could easily fund scientific surveys to determine how widespread certain views are, but it would possibly go against vested interests to have accurate information concerning the views of Muslims
I am curious... @firedragon to know what the Holy Qur'an says about art, about statues and paintings ...about aesthethics.
For example...a painting like the Birth of Venus by Botticelli.
View attachment 43460
Thank youThe Qur'an does not say anything about physical paintings or/and about aesthetics.
If you are in-fact referring to idol worship, the Quran refers to idol worship as even worshiping your wealth as "ilah" or "deity". There is absolutely no indication of a work of art being idol worship unless someone worships it. Quran cites that there are people who took their own children as Divine. Even their own personal ego/desire or "Havah".
That was a good question! I'm a bit of an artist myself and I love art, and naked ladies too. Should I be lowering my gaze or because the depiction is not of a human, do you think its ok that I'm looking at these breasts? How about if its pornographic imagery or imagery of other inappropriate or indecent sorts of things, which are "simulated" or otherwise "actual" sex acts by "performers" who I'm not married to (and who aren't my slaves either, drat!).Thank you